Tom Huang is an Asian American director, writer, and actor. Why Am I Doing This? is his second independent feature film. It chronicles the lives of two performers of color as they struggle to break into the industry. Tony (Tom Huang) and Lester (Anthony Montgomery) must grapple with industry stereotypes, family drama, girlfriend issues, and the crap jobs aspiring actors have to take on the side in order to cover rent.

As an independent movie, Why Am I Doing This? offers an bitingly funny and honest look at the entertainment industry and what it’s like to live in Los Angeles, one of the most diverse cities in the world. Why Am I Doing This? was released on DVD on July 13th, 2010.

Racebending.com co-founder Marissa Lee attended a screening of Why Am I Doing This? in Beverly Hills and followed up with director, writer, and actor Tom Huang via email.

RACEBENDING.COM: Tell us a bit about who you are and what you do!

TOM HUANG: Well, I’m Tom Huang, indie filmmaker (cue: hero trumpet blare). I work on writing, producing, and editing my own indie film projects (that’s the indie filmmaker part of me) as well as doing various jobs in Hollywood as a producer, editor, director and writer to pay the bills. I wrote for network TV for a few seasons before making Why Am I Doing This?, which is my second feature.

RACEBENDING.COM:What inspired you to make Why Am I Doing This?l

TOM HUANG: After my first indie feature, freshmen, I started working in TV, and eventually was lucky enough to get a few jobs writing for network TV sitcoms. Getting a TV writing gig was great, but it’s still very much about sticking to formulaic stories and characters (most of which are, of course, Caucasian). I still very much wanted to make my own films, so in my off-time from writing for the shows I decided to start writing a feature that I could shoot as my second feature.

I always feel like the most real writing comes from personal experience, so I decided to write about something I’m very familiar with: failing in Hollywood… but from a more diverse perspective. I also wanted to do something different than what I had to do for TV, something that dealt with multi-ethnic relationships and families, and with living in a multi-cultural stew like Los Angeles. So that become the foundation for what I wanted to start with…

“I always feel like the most real writing comes from personal experience, so I decided to write about something I’m very familiar with: failing in Hollywood… but from a more diverse perspective. “

I then just let the characters guide me through their stories as I wrote the film. I wanted to write something funny, but also real, so I tried making as real characters as possible and allow the humor to just come from their struggles in life, as well as trying to say something about chasing your dream job, family, and understanding what’s important to you. After the Hollywood writer’s strike, I couldn’t find a TV writing job, so I decided it was good time to try to put the film together, and things just worked out so that I could do it.

RACEBENDING.COM: Your film is set and filmed in Los Angeles and reflects the true diversity of the city. Was this something you tried to be conscious of during the writing and casting process?

TOM HUANG: I absolutely was trying to reflect the diversity of the city and how it affects your relationships in life. There’s actually a scene that I had to cut–it’s in the DVD extras–that addresses this very thought… Tony argues that even though Los Angeles is diverse, everyone still sticks with their own kind: there’s the “Korean” part of town, the “Chinese” part of town, the “kinda weird Orthodox Jewish” part of town, etc. Lester finds this pessimistic, but I always think it’s an interesting argument.

Koreatown, Los Angeles

In both of my feature films, I really made an effort to make the film as diverse as possible that still felt real to me, because that’s the kind of world I live in, and because that’s partially why I got into filmmaking in the first place.

Thus, I don’t really explain it in the film, but you see some uniquely Los Angeles ethnic hang-outs, like karaoke in Koreatown, or street racing lowered Civics on the outskirts of L.A., etc. Places like these really show how the mix of cultures have manifested itself; Koreans gathering to sing American pop songs in English, Asian-American hip-hop kids gathering to listen to rap and embrace African-American culture, but never hang out with an actual African-American. It’s a great background that you never get to see in Hollywood.

I actually started out wanting to be an actor while at UCLA, but going through the audition process in the theater department, even at UCLA, I couldn’t find any parts for me, especially parts where I can just play an interesting character who happened to be Asian. It was then I realized if I wanted to do anything interesting, I’d have to write it myself, so I turned around and became a Creative Writing major.

“I actually started out wanting to be an actor…I couldn’t find any parts for me, especially parts where I can just play an interesting character who happened to be Asian. I realized if I wanted to do anything interesting, I’d have to write it myself…”

RACEBENDING.COM: Were the character’s cultural backgrounds factored into the story, or were these elements added in after casting, or both?

TOM HUANG: With “Why Am I Doing This?” the diverse characters started straight from the beginning.I imagined these characters as Chinese-American, African-American, East Indian-American, Latino-American, etc., from the start and wrote their stories with that in mind.

Anthony Montgomery plays Lester– parking meter cop by day, stand up comedian by night.

RACEBENDING.COM: The two main characters in the movie, Asian American actor Tony and African American comedian Lester, both do not seem to fit Hollywood’s preconcieved notions of who they are based on their respective ethnicities. Would you say that this kind of type-casting is common in Hollywood?

TOM HUANG: I’d say, yes, type-casting like this is still pretty common; you can see it in roles on TV and in film. (Like, what is up with those metro PCS commercials with the wacky Indian guys? Holy crap.)

But it’s getting a little better as we kind of evolve as a more diverse society in America, and as we get more diverse people behind the camera as writers and executives.

Having written for network TV, I think there is definitely a conscious effort to diversify guest roles and supporting cast, but when it comes to casting main roles, it’s still very much a white world. And more specifically, it’s even tougher to find an Asian-American cast in a main role where they aren’t speaking with some sort of accent.

“I think there is definitely a conscious effort to diversify guest roles and supporting cast, but when it comes to casting main roles, it’s still very much a white world.”

I think there are actually a number of roles that producers bring in different ethnicities to audition for the main parts, but it almost always ends up just getting cast as Caucasian.

I think African-Americans have it a little better as far as number of parts as studios recognize they have to service a huge audience, but there still is an expectation that an African-American character has to talk “Black” and is some sort of wise-cracking, tell-it-as-it-is kind of person, as seen with the recurrent female “Black Best Friend” character we see so much.

RACEBENDING.COM: Are actors encouraged to act more “ethnic” to get jobs?

TOM HUANG: I don’t know if most people are encouraged to act more “ethnic” to get jobs… the amount of ethnicity is kind of written in the part from the beginning, so it’s more a problem of trying to get people to write interesting characters, who just happen to be of color, from the start.

“It’s more a problem of trying to get people to write interesting characters, who just happen to be of color, from the start..”

It does happen, though… A pretty big Asian-American actor friend of mine went to an audition for a network TV pilot and told the producers specifically, “Hey, if you want me to do the wacky accent thing, I don’t want to audition.” They told him, no no, that’s fine. So he auditioned, and got the part as one of the main roles.

During the first rehearsal, they came back to him and said, “uh… You think you can do the accent thing? We think it’d be funnier.” So he left the show. I don’t know if I’d have the balls to do that.

RACEBENDING.COM:In the first scene of the movie, a studio exec asks Tony to use an Asian accent during his audition. Is this scene based on a true incident?

TOM HUANG: The scene is actually based on a number of stories I’ve heard from my Asian-American acting friends, where they’re asked to do a part in an “Asian” or “Oriental” accent, and when the actor asks “What kind of Asian accent?” they just get blank looks.

RACEBENDING.COM:What sort of standard–in terms of acting roles–does this set for Asian American actors in Hollywood?

TOM HUANG: I don’t know if this necessarily sets a standard, but yes, I do feel that it seems like when a role is written specifically for an Asian in Hollywood, they usually have some sort of foreign slant–if you can excuse the term–to it, where the role is for an Asian foreigner or an Asian-American who is there because he/she speaks Korean or whatever.

LOST’s Korean characters, Sun and Jin (played by Yunjin Kim and Daniel Dae Kim)

Of course, it’s not always a bad thing… In the show “Lost” the Korean couple, Jin and Sun, are wonderfully constructed characters with depth and life. For me, it’s just that there aren’t enough interesting roles where I can see someone like me, a normal American guy, who happens to be Asian–like the role of Miles on “Lost.”

In contrast, Ken Leung plays Miles Straume, a sardonic Asian American, on LOST.

And as Clyde Kusatsu says in the film, it’s kind of just the reality of the situation right now… Studios look at the demographics, and at last count, Asian Americans only account for 6% of the population, so they’d rather play the numbers and go with the majority on the screen.

RACEBENDING.COM: The movie takes some pot shots at how the biz works and how it treats actors of color. Was it risky for you, as an independent filmmaker, to call out some of these practices?

TOM HUANG: Actually, it’s because I’m an independent filmmaker that it’s not as risky to take pot shots at the business.

For the most part, when you get lots of money to make a big film or TV show, it also comes with the restrictions of having to work with people paying for you and your production, which is often a big studio or network. Since they’re looking so desperately to get a return, they don’t like taking risks, so they go with the ‘safe’ route that’s made money before and appeals to the biggest; thus you get formulaic films, non-diverse casting and stories about the majority race in America.

The single biggest thing you get as an indie filmmaker–since you don’t get any money–is creative control, so you get a chance to make something that you want to see–in my case, a multi-cultural cast and story. Unfortunately, I think the only place at the moment to see multi-ethnic stories is in independent film, because it’s only place it can be made.

“Unfortunately, I think the only place at the moment to see multi-ethnic stories is in independent film, because it’s only place it can be made.”

I don’t think anyone in Hollywood really cares I’m taking shots at how they do business… They’ve heard all before and are still making money, not to mention my film is pretty small. I do hope that someone at a studio or network will look at the film and see how my very talented actors can play normal American roles–while bringing something new to the table in a positive way–and then consider them for roles that may have been originally written for someone white.

” I do hope that someone at a studio or network will look at the film and see how my very talented actors can play normal American roles–while bringing something new to the table in a positive way–and then consider them for roles that may have been originally written for someone white.”

RACEBENDING.COM: In the movie, Tony discovers a mentor in older Asian American actor Clyde Kusatsu (playing himself!) and performs in an all-Asian production of Death of a Salesman–a role he would likely not have access to, as an actor of color, outside of Asian American theater. In real life, what sort of resources are there for Asian Americans who aspire to get into film?

TOM HUANG: There are lots of resources for Asian-Americans to get into film, whether it be film school, or various diversity training programs put on by the studios and networks, to all-Asian theater troupes like East-West Players or OPM, to groups that put on the various Asian-American film festivals like Center for Asian-American Media in San Francisco, or the Coalition of Asian-Pacifics in Entertainment (CAPE), just to name a few.

RACEBENDING.COM: Is there a large support system out there?

TOM HUANG: The support is definitely there, not to mention the support of the Asian-American Hollywood community in general. For my film, I was overwhelmed and cheered by the response of the Asian-American actors who were more than happy to be in my film, no matter how big the part and how little they got paid, because they wanted to support a fellow Asian-American artist. I know many of the Asian-American actors, filmmakers, and execs around town because it is a small, tight-knit community.

Making it in Hollywood is pretty tough for anybody of any race, so it really is a matter of hanging in there long enough to get your break or your next job.

I believe that you can’t worry about the Asian-American part of being a performer or writer or director or whatever because you can’t really control that. What you can control is being the best actor, writer or director you can and let your talent and hard work eventually show people they should hire you.

It doesn’t always work out (I’m livin’ that, yo,) but in the end, I believe that’s what will get you in or give you a chance, because true talent will always get recognized. But man, it can be rough.

RACEBENDING.COM: In Why Am I Doing This, there is a commentary on popular Asian American actors. Every role for an Asian American guy in the biz, Tony laments, seems to either go to real-life Korean American actor John Cho, or to his nemesis, (the fictional) Tim Chung. Where did the idea for this joke come about?

TOM HUANG: Well, the joke actually comes a large part from the truth, in my mind. As I said, Hollywood is a business, and they want to make sure they sell tickets, so just by the numbers game, they prefer having recognizable faces on the screen. So who is the most recognizable male Asian-American actor who also happens to have talent? That’s right, that “Harold and Kumar American Pie” guy.

John Cho and Kal Penn, Hollywood’s go-to Asian American actors of the moment

RACEBENDING.COM: Why does Hollywood always seem to go for the same Asian actors?

TOM HUANG: That’s just how Hollywood works, regardless of the race… For a part for any studio film, who do they want? The most recognizable guy, or the guy that’s “hot” at the moment. It just so happens that there aren’t a whole lot of big Asian-American roles –Jackie Chan and Jet Li are getting all the karate ones– so the list isn’t that big of recognizable names that’s done a lot of stuff…

Right now, it’s John Cho and maybe now funny doctor guy Ken Jeong, or Kal Penn if you want to go Indian. Now there’s plenty of other great, talented Asian-American actors, but they just haven’t been lucky enough to get that big role that somehow puts them in the minds of the middle-American audience, so until they do… John Cho will still be on top of the studio list.

Dion Basco plays Danny, Tony’s brother and polar opposite.

RACEBENDING.COM: Dion Basco (brother of Dante Basco of Avatar: The Last Airbender) plays Tony’s brother and a Chinese American character, even though he is Filipino American. What are your thoughts on Asian Americans playing different ethnicities?

TOM HUANG: Although I kind of make light of it in the film, I think it’s fine, especially if it’s Asian-Americans playing Asian-Americans, since the American part of it is more the big part of the characters’ voice.

I generally can sort of tell different Asians apart, but there is plenty of overlap, as far as looks, with all Asians (or Indians and Pakistanis and such). I certainly have been mistaken for Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese, etc., by people of those backgrounds (that made for awkward conversation let me tell you).

I think it can get a little wacky when an Asian plays an Asian-Asian of different ethnicity with a completely different accent, like in the film version of Memoirs of a Geisha, where they had Chinese nationals, who spoke poor English, playing Japanese people, speaking English in some British-Japanese accent. Holy crap that was terrible.

RACEBENDING.COM: In advertisements like the movie poster, Amber (played by Emma Caulfield), is placed in the center and appears to be the central focus of the film. Yet, the main characters in the film are Tony and Lester. Why wasn’t more focus placed on Lester and Tony in advertisements?

TOM HUANG: For my distributor, it was more of a recognizable actor thing than an ethnic thing. When selling DVDs, for distributors and retailers, what sells the DVDs is the box cover, not the actual content of the movie…

My movie could be an hour and a half of me crapping on the toilet, but if there are recognizable, sellable faces on the cover (a genre like horror), then the DVD will sell.

Tony hangs out with the gregarious Amber (Emma Caulfield)

My distributor felt that Emma Caulfield (who was a series regular as “Anya” on the popular “Buffy the Vampire” TV series) was the most recognizable actor that had an audience they could sell to, so she went on the front of the cover.

I think if they had their druthers, they probably would have wanted to take me off the cover as well, since I don’t really have any ‘name’ value, but I think the bear suit I’m wearing saved me.

RACEBENDING.COM: Often stories told by people of color are considered ‘niche’ films that only succeed in specific cultural communities. What sorts of ways do you think the general audience might become more interested in hearing about real people’s stories, histories and Point of Views, even if they might not coincide with their own?

TOM HUANG:I think people are definitely interested in hearing about real people’s stories of any ethnicity as long as it’s interesting enough and done well… It’s just that studios aren’t willing to take the risk.

You look at Slumdog Millionaire, a movie about an Indian boy in India trying to win back his love, no studio would touch that with a 10-foot pole. So some people took a chance, made it independently, and Fox Searchlight recognized it was simply a great film and gambled it would do well because of that, and it was blockbuster. It also benefited from a planned, slow rollout where word of mouth helped get people into the theaters, and of course the Oscars helped as well.

There are plenty of other examples, such as the Joy Luck Club (a good example of actual Asian-American stories) and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, etc. People are wiling to watch it, I think, it’s just a matter of more studios wiling to release films based on quality rather than formulas, and also a matter of making sure films like that are made with low-budgets so it can turn a profit to help buy other films like it.

RACEBENDING.COM: What tangible things can fans and media consumers do to help push the entertainment industry into showing us a world or worlds where people of color exist?

TOM HUANG: It’s pretty simple… People just have to show support for those kinds of films and TV shows. They have to watch them on TV and buy their DVDs, that’s what speaks the industry, because, again, they are a business.

If you see a film or TV show you like, buy the DVD, or if you see a film that comes out that looks interesting with that kind of perspective, go see it… That’s the only thing that will truly speak to “the industry.”

And there has to be more support for independent films, as well. These are usually the only places where stories about people of color can be made, because they’re not constrained by having to cater to the masses. Indie filmmakers like me cannot survive very long making small films like that unless people buy the films or they get hired by a studio, it’s simply too hard to get by. So please, if you like what a filmmaker has done and want to see more, buy their product so they can continue to do just that.

“There has to be more support for independent films…These are usually the only places where stories about people of color can be made, because they’re not constrained by having to cater to the masses.”

And, of course, support awareness movements like this site…it’s only when studios see the great number of people that want to see more diverse casts and stories of different cultures that they’re willing to give something new a try. I think the publicity and awareness generated by this site and the people who read it was pretty tremendous.

In a scene from Why Am I Doing This? Tony (Tom Huang) meets a mysterious girl (Lynn Chen) while on the job as a birthday party Spider-man.

RACEBENDING.COM: In the film, the audience and Lester and Tony themselves come to learn exactly why they are “doing this”–throwing everything they have into breaking into the entertainment industry, while representing themselves in an honest way and without selling out. It’s hard, especially when there are so many barriers in Hollywood. So, Tom, why are you doing “this”?

TOM HUANG: First of all, making this film has been a complete pain-in-the-ass for everyone involved: my family and friends, the tireless cinematographer and crew, the actors, the producers, the people who let us use their bar, my next door neighbors who kind of reluctantly let me use their living room to shoot in… the list goes on. I’ve had to borrow money to make this film, I still have to work a day job to pay the bills, a lot of things I have to end up doing myself because all the skilled people who have been working for free or little money for me have to move on and actually do things that pay them. I literally am working probably 10-12 hours a day with all the stuff I have to do as well as my other projects I’m working on to pay the bills. So really, why am I doing this godforsaken movie that maybe nobody will see?

Well, quite simply, it’s because making movies is what I want to do in life, and I always feel that if you want to do something, you should do it (if you can). Yes, it’s been quite difficult getting it done, and it’s stressful to have this loan out I’m not sure how I’m going to pay back… but I’m also fortunate to know many talented people who can help me out, and I know I have the skills and resources to make a film that people can watch without thinking “am I watching a really long home movie?” So why not? I can.

“Because making movies is what I want to do in life, and I always feel that if you want to do something, you should do it.”

The other reason is that I feel I have something to say and can affect people in a positive way through my filmmaking, whether it be by laughter or tears, by creating a character people care about and learn from, or just creating a story than can inspire and make people think about their lives.

Finally, probably the main reason is that the filmmaking side of it is incredibly enjoyable and engaging for me. The other logistical stuff I’m dealing with now, i.e., doing contracts, getting rights, marketing, etc… Huge pain-in-the-ass. But it’s all for being able to do the other stuff. Working with actors and crew on a scene, sitting in a dark editing room cutting together scenes, sitting in a theater with an audience who’s never heard of the film before laugh their asses off or shed a little tear during the film, talking with someone who’s seen the film tell me it’s inspired them in some way… all that makes the pain-in-ass stuff more than worth it. That is, as long as I’m not pissing off my friends and family for too long that they don’t want to be around me anymore.

I always believe that you have to define yourself by what you do. If you claim to be a good person, you should be doing good things. If you say you want to get healthy, you should take actions to be healthy. And if you want to call yourself a filmmaker, you have to make films. And that’s why I have to do it. I just wish someone will let me make a living doing it sometime. Oh man, sometime soon, please…

Racebending.com would like to thank Mr. Tom Huang for this interview!

For more information on Why Am I Doing This? visit the website! www.whyamidoingthis.net
The DVD is available on Amazon.com: Why Am I Doing This, Walmart.com, and Target.com.

Tim Dang is the producing artistic director of East West Players, an Asian American theater organization based in Los Angeles, CA. He also guest starred in Season 3 of Avatar: The Last Airbender, playing Yon Rha, the Fire Nation soldier who killed Katara and Sokka’s mother, in the episode The Southern Raiders.

Racebending.com had the opportunity to interview Dang about his work with East West Players, Avatar: The Last Airbender, the 1990 Miss Saigon protests, and Asian American acting now and in the future.

The nation’s premier Asian American theater organization, East West Players was co-founded in 1965 by seven Asian American actors, including two actors who would eventually work on Avatar: The Last Airbender— late actor Mako Iwamatsu (Uncle Iroh) and James Hong (Mayor Tong). Several EWP alumni like Dante Basco (Prince Zuko), George Takei, and Daniel Dae Kim also voiced characters in Avatar: The Last Airbender.

A writer, actor, and director, Tim Dang has been with East West Players since 1980 and has served as the Players’ artistic director since 1993.

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

RACEBENDING.COM Please tell us about East West Players and the work that they do.

TIM DANG: East West Players has been giving opportunities to Asian American artists both on-stage and behind the scenes since our founding in 1965. We provide access to an entertainment medium that has not fairly and accurately represented the Asian American experience on stage, on film and TV. With the world becoming more and more global, our work raising the visibility of the Asian Pacific artists and the Asian Pacific experience has seen a growth on the American landscape. But there is still a lot of work to be done.

RACEBENDING.COM: How has your work with East West Players affected your perception of Asian American strides in performing, creating, and promoting television, film, and other visual arts?

TIM DANG: We are proud to say that over 3,000 Asian American artists have come through our doors since our founding in 1965. Chances are, if you see an Asian American on film or TV and definitely on the stage, that performer has had some relationship with East West Players.

I would estimate about 75% of [Asian American] actors have come through our doors. But with more Asian Pacifics going into the industry through many streams of training, we welcome the expanding group of Asian Pacific artists coming to Hollywood, New York and other culturally rich environments.

RACEBENDING.COM: What are your hopes for the future of Asian Americans in Hollywood and the entertainment industry at large? What should artists do?

TIM DANG: It is great to see much more opportunity for Asian Pacific artists in Hollywood. It is better to see more Asian Pacific writers, directors, producers being more creatively involved. They have the ability to hire more Asian Americans. Especially when there are Asian American producers, they can create more works about the Asian Pacific experience or a more diverse experience.

Like all artists, the Asian American artist has to be prepared when their time comes and when opportunity knocks. They need to train extensively in their craft – continuously, they need to know the business of acting and they need to be involved/knowledgeable in everything. They need to do their homework.

This could mean learning an authentic accent–even British or Australian since there are many Asians who live there–physical skills–horseback riding, riding a bicycle, playing football and even martial arts–as well as cultural, behavioral skills. It’s important to be exposed to all of these things.

RACEBENDING.COM What should advocacy groups do? What can consumers do to help achieve this ideal vision?

TIM DANG: This is an unofficial way of thinking, but I believe that through social media, we can organize quicker and we can advocate as a group with a click of an email. We can let studios or producers know how we feel about something.

But we should also be smart with what platform you will focus on and what you are willing to let go of. The world is full of compromises and there is a balance that is maintained.

Only time will help aid the evolution of the process. Things don’t happen fast enough but they will happen. It is the groundwork that is laid down now that will have its effect years from now.

Imagine if the work that EWP has been doing the past 44 years had never been done? The path would be a lot more challenging. And because of the advocacy done on The Last Airbender, more people are aware of the issue and the next time this issue happens, the activism will be much stronger.

RACEBENDING.cOM:The protest against “racebending” in the musical Miss Saigon took place twenty years ago–before many The Last Airbender protestors were even born. What inspired you to join the Miss Saigon protest?

TIM DANG: As a performer, I had always wondered why the King in the musical The King and I was always played by a Caucasian actor.

Yul Brynner in The King and I (1965) released the same year East West Players was formed.

TIM DANG: When Miss Saigon came along, if we permitted one more Asian role to be lost to someone non-Asian, there would be another generation of “yellowface” happening to another hit musical and less opportunities to be played by an Asian American lead. It was time to stop this process.

Miss Saigon was that moment in time a large group advocated for change in casting practices that were discriminatory to Asian Americans. Imagine what could have been done if we had email way back then!

Protesters at the Miss Saigon Broadway premiere in 1991.

RACEBENDING.COM What lessons learned from the Miss Saigon protest might apply to protests against discrimination in casting today?

TIM DANG: The lessons learned was that we empowered ourselves and that our voice could be heard. We paved the way so that Miss Saigon’s role of the Engineer, as far as I know, has always been played by a person with Asian ethnicity since Jonathan Pryce played him in London and Broadway. And Miss Saigon gives opportunities to many Asian American performers.

Since 1994, Filipino actor Leo Valdez has played the role of the Engineer over 1000 times, including on tour in Manila, Hong Kong, Sydney, London, and Singapore.

TIM DANG: Now, the content of Miss Saigon can also be another topic of debate but again we pick and choose our battles one subject at a time.

RACEBENDING.COM: Many of our readers are huge fans of Mako Iwamatsu, who played the voice of Uncle Iroh in Avatar: The Last Airbender. Mako also advocated for roles for Asian American actors and played a significant role in the creation and legacy of East West Players.

Mako Iwamatsu (Iroh)

RACEBENDING.COM: What was it like to work with Mako as one of your mentors? Did he share any views with you about Asian American representation in the arts and film industry?

TIM DANG: I remember the first conversation I had with Mako when I came to East West Players at the age of 21. He asked if I really wanted to be an actor and whether I had the passion and commitment to be in this business.

He said if there is anything else that I could do to make a living at, that I should do it. He told me it was going to be tough, opportunities were going to be few and that only a few will survive.

Well, I’m glad I’m still in the biz after 30 years.

RACEBENDING.COM: Common excuses that we’ve heard for not casting Asian American talent include that few Asian Americans are interested in being actors. Based on your own experiences, have you found this to be true?

TIM DANG: All I can say from the number of Asian American artists who come to East West Players to audition, to take classes and to find out how to get into the business, is that the Asian American artist community grows every year. More of them are in college/university theater/film programs, many are involved with the approximately 55 Asian American theaters around the nation as well as non-Asian specific theaters around the country.

RACEBENDING.COM: What about the excuse that Asians Americans who are actors lack talent and professional experience?

TIM DANG: Everyone needs training. There are just as many if not more non-Asian actors that lack talent and professional training.

If you–the casting director, or producer, or studio–do your homework and actually search for the right actor, you will find them. There is no excuse for inaccurately depicting a culture or a community.

If you–the casting director, or producer, or studio–do your homework and actually search for the right actor, you will find them. There is no excuse for inaccurately depicting a culture or a community.

RACEBENDING.COM Inquiring fans want to know: What was your experience like when you guest starred on Avatar: The Last Airbender? You played the character of Yon Rha, a retired Fire Nation soldier who years ago murdered the mother of the heroine, Katara.

TIM DANG: One of the more interesting parts of doing voiceover work is that you may be the only actor in the room and you are performing the scene with the director who is also describing to you what is happening in the script. They are also telling you the kind of emotion that you may be feeling. My job as an actor is to do it at least three different ways since we’ll do each scene at least three times and sometimes 10 times.

Tim Dang’s character, Yon Rha, a retired Fire Nation soldier–former leader of the Southern Raiders.

TIM DANG: At the end of the day, the director and writer have all these choices of how to play the scene with the different reactions I have given. So it’s always surprising to see which line reading is eventually chosen for the episode.

RACEBENDING.COM: Was it challenging to play such a controversial character?

TIM DANG: I remember my character being remorseful, and crying a lot so that my character did not lose face and still had a degree of integrity.

Yon Rha: I did a bad thing. I know I did and you deserve revenge.
So why don’t you take my Mother? That would be fair! Please spare me!

TIM DANG: It wasn’t so much challenging playing a controversial character as it was trying to bring up all the emotions without anyone to act with, while the director is describing the scene.

Racebending.com would like to thank Mr. Tim Dang for this interview! For more information about East West Players, visit their website at www.eastwestplayers.org
To learn more about Mako, click here to read Racebending.com’s feature article.

Professor Birgitte Vittrup is a researcher at Texas Woman’s University’s Department of Family Sciences who studies Early Childhood Development and Education.

In September 2009, Newsweek magazine published an article called “See Baby Discriminate”. Writers Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman featured Birgitte Vittrup’s 2007 dissertation, “Exploring the Influences of Educational Television and Parent-Child Discussions on Improving Children’s Racial Attitudes.” Vittrup’s study explored if multicultural children’s television or conversations with parents helped improve white children’s attitudes towards black people.

Racebending.com staff was immediately interested in this study because Avatar: The Last Airbender is a multicultural show. Although A:TLA was not one of the shows used in the study–kids were shown episodes of The Puzzle Place, Sesame Street, Little Bill, and Zoom–were curious to know if shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender help foster diversity. When Racebending.com staff tried to find Professor Vittrup’s contact information, we were shocked to learn that her studies have caused her to receive a substantial amount of hate mail from white supremacist groups.

We interviewed Vittrup over email about her studies, the developmental psychology of children as media consumers, their perceptions of race and ethnicity, and the potential impact the The Last Airbender “racebending” casting decisions may have on a young viewing audience.

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

RACEBENDING.COM I was wondering if we could start off talking about your dissertation, the one that researched whether or not children’s television, conversations with parents, or a combination of both would influence how they see race? Can you describe what happened?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP:The study was an intervention study to improve children’s racial attitudes. One group of children watched racially diverse educational TV programs by themselves, one group watched the programs and discussed the content (i.e., the diversity messages) with their parents, one group had the conversations with their parents (without the programs), and a fourth group was our control group.

We compared children’s racial attitude scores before and after the intervention and also considered neighborhood and school diversity and interracial friendships the children might have.

Initially I found that there was no statistically significant difference between pre- and post-test scores in any of the groups. This was of course disappointing and I started looking more closely at the data to see what might be the reason. The viewing and discussion diaries that parents filled out each day started to clue me in as to what might be going on.

Parents in the TV + Discussion group and in the Discussion Only group had to indicate whether they had the discussion, whether they covered all topics provided, and the level of discussion they had (no discussion, just mentioned the topics, had some conversation about the topics, or had in-depth conversations with their child). It became clear that most parents did not follow the directions given, and either they skipped some of the topics, had no discussion, or just barely mentioned the topics. Very few parents had real substantive conversations with their children.

I then looked at some of the background information and lead-in questions the parents had filled out prior to the intervention, and the questions related to whether or not parents discuss race with their children and why gave additional clues about why the intervention might not have worked.

Many parents indicated that they had chosen not to discuss race with their children, and the most commonly given reasons were that they wanted their children to grow up to be “colorblind,” the topic had not come up, they didn’t think it was important to discuss race, or they simply did not know how to discuss it in an appropriate manner.

The parents who indicated that they did discuss race mostly mentioned very generic statements, such as “Everyone is equal,” “God created everyone,” and “We are all the same on the inside.” These are vague statements that don’t necessarily translate into messages about race and equality in a child’s mind.

In conclusion, it became apparent that the intervention did not work because parents were so uncomfortable talking about race that they chose not to follow the instructions given for the intervention. When looking at the small number of parents who did have significant conversations with their children, there was a significant improvement in racial attitudes.

Parents were so uncomfortable talking about race that they chose not to follow the instructions given for the intervention. When looking at the small number of parents who did have significant conversations with their children, there was a significant improvement in racial attitudes.

Another thing we measured was children’s perceptions of their parents’ racial attitudes, both before and after the intervention. Prior to the intervention, many of the white children indicated that they did not know what their parents thought about Black people, and some bluntly stated that they thought their parents did not like Black people.

Following the intervention, the children whose parents had had conversations with them which included messages about racial equality were much less likely to say that they didn’t know their parents’ attitudes or to say that they thought their parents held negative racial attitudes.

RACEBENDING.COM After reading the article in Newsweek, racebending.com readers had an online discussion about how the label “racist” is synonymous with being bad, or irredeemably awful.

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: I agree, it’s a very “charged” word – and a very charged subject. Before the civil rights movement, it was considered somewhat appropriate to hold negative attitudes towards other racial groups as well as to speak openly about it. However, in current times, it is considered inappropriate to harbor such negative attitudes. Whites especially are so uncomfortable with the topic of race, probably because they do not want to be labeled “racist” if they say something the wrong way, and I think the word “racist” has become somewhat associated with the notion of being of irredeemably low character.

RACEBENDING.COM It seems to hamper any effort at constructive dialogue about race, since it then becomes impossible to point out someone’s prejudiced beliefs without also being seen as accusing them of being the scum of the earth. Do you have any thoughts about how society approaches discussions about race?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: One definition of racism is that it is a system of advantage based on race – this system involves cultural messages, institutional policies, and attitudes, beliefs, and actions of individuals.

In the U.S. that means whites (who are the majority) have an advantage over racial minorities. This is an uncomfortable definition to some, because white people often do not think of themselves as being privileged or having additional opportunities for success compared to other racial groups. They often don’t see it.

Because of this, discussions about race are subdued and people in the “majority” group (i.e., White Americans) are weary of engaging in such conversations – they don’t want to appear “racist” or even slightly biased, and they don’t know exactly what is “PC” to talk about and what isn’t (so rather than risking saying the wrong thing, they choose not to broach the subject at all).

Similarly, it is considered perfectly appropriate for people of racial minority status to express pride in their race and heritage, whereas pride amongst whites is usually associated with “white pride/white power” affiliations (which are usually categorized as “hate” groups), and thus in order to instill “appropriate” pride in white children, parents usually focus on the specific country of heritage (such as Irish, Italian, German, French, etc.), rather than the race overall.

All of these things, in combination with the strong history of racial discrimination in this country, contribute to the discomfort many people feel in talking openly about race.

In reality, we all have biases, and we’re all aware of the stereotypes that exist about various racial groups. The biases are based on our experiences, observations, and messages from parents, peers, and the media. In order for healthy dialogue to take place, we have to acknowledge these biases and evaluate where they’re coming from.

I think as a society we have to learn to more openly discuss biases and the origins of those biases in order to progress to being a more “equal” society. This takes effort at all levels – parents, teachers, media, government, policies, etc.

RACEBENDING.COM: Pretty much everyone we’ve interviewed so far has agreed that children see racial differences. But do kids attribute the same things to those racial differences that adults do?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: Generally, young children don’t. The Newsweek article didn’t quite explain everything as accurately as I might have wished for.

When babies see differences between faces or people of different skin color, the word “discriminate” refers to being able to distinguish. Babies tend to look longer at things that are familiar to them, and thus, if they are used to seeing people and faces of a particular skin color, they are more likely to look longer at those images because it is what’s familiar to them.

Young children (e.g., preschoolers) see skin color differences as well, but they do not yet attribute the meaning to race and skin color as adults do. To them it is simply a physical characteristic they are noticing. When they are young, children learn which differences are important in categorizing people and which aren’t.

For example, children pay attention to hair length and color as well, but they learn quickly that there isn’t really a consistent pattern of categorization into long-haired people, medium length hair people, and short-haired people, so it becomes more of a peripheral characteristic.

On the contrary they learn quickly that race IS a significant characteristic that is used to categorize people. This is based on their observations–the way people group together and what they see in the media–and what they hear (e.g., the use of racial labels to describe people, or any statements linking certain traits to certain racial groups).

So around the ages of 3-5 children develop racial awareness where they are able to recognize racial differences, label the differences, and categorize themselves within a racial group.

After they develop awareness, they develop “racial orientation,” which is when the first positive and negative attitudes about racial groups show up. These are sometimes referred to as “embryonic racial attitudes” and they generally become present around the ages of 3-6. These two phases form the foundations of later racial attitude development.

Around age 6-8 they begin to learn more about the complexities of race, including stereotypes and social status, and around the ages of 6-8. They learn this from society, media, and adults around them.

Many parents are under the assumption–naïve as it may be–that by not talking about race, children will grow up to be colorblind. Unfortunately, our society is not colorblind, so without parents mediating and explaining to children what they are seeing, hearing, and experiencing, children are pretty much left to their own devices to figure everything out.

[Kids] see the self-segregation of children into different racial groups at school, they hear comments made by their peers, they see the stereotyped portrayals on television, and they notice that their parents don’t seem to associate much with people of other racial groups. Thus, they are likely to make the conclusion that other racial groups are not as important, there are negative traits associated with these other groups, and you should not associate and mingle with them.

For this reason, I think it is vitally important that parents have more explicit conversations with their children–focusing on diversity, equality, respect, and importance across all racial groups–as well as teach them media literacy skills. Teaching them to critically evaluate what they see on television (or video games, computers, etc.) and make them realize that the world of television is not necessarily representative of the real world.

RACEBENDING.COM: What role does the media play in informing children’s perceptions of race? In your opinion, are there any differences in how white children view/interpret media, versus how children of color might view/interpret media?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: Media is such a big part of children’s lives these days. They spend countless hours in front of television, video games, and computers. TV has often been referred to as a “window on the world” because children look to television to learn about the norms, values, rules, and structure of the society they live in.

Children Now – a non-profit organization– has done some content analyses of primetime television programming and video games, and their findings are very interesting. Television is very white, and the proportion of minorities [on TV] is not representative of the actual proportion living within the United States. Furthermore, minorities are often cast in minor/secondary roles or very stereotyped roles.

This causes a problem when children don’t have regular “real-life” contact with people of other racial or ethnic groups, because their only knowledge of them then comes from television, and they’re likely to buy into the stereotypes, as well as pick up on a subtle message that non-whites are not as important–since they’re not portrayed as often, nor are they frequently portrayed in the “hero” roles.

It is important that children see themselves represented on television – not just in terms of race, but also in terms of socioeconomic status and family structure. Being represented on television makes them feel “normal” – that there are others like them.

It is important that children see themselves represented on television…Being represented on television makes them feel “normal” – that there are others like them.

For white, middle-class children this is usually not a problem. But for minorities, children from lower-socioeconomic status families, and children in single-parent, blended, or mixed-race families, this is not always the case. They either don’t see themselves represented at all, or they see negative stereotyped representations of themselves. This can over time influence children’s self-esteem and feelings of self-worth and “fitting in.”

RACEBENDING.COM: A lot of the fans really felt that Avatar: The Last Airbender was quality children’s television, in part because of how—despite the fact that it was set in a fantasy world—it introduced children to elements of Asian culture. They especially liked how the characters were ethnically from Pacific Rim cultures, rather than the traditional Anglo-Saxon characters you see in other fantasy shows.

Based on your research and what you’ve studied about children and race, do shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender, which introduce kids to new cultures and heroes of color, help kids become less prejudiced?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: Yes, I believe that it is important for all children to be exposed to ethnically diverse programs in which people from various racial/ethnic groups are presented as positive role models and in heroic roles. Children of all racial groups need to see “their own kind” represented on television, and they need to see a variety of “others” represented.

Exposure to positive role models and heroic characters of various cultural backgrounds will send the message that all racial/ethnic groups are important and that they all have positive characteristics. The more equally diverse children’s programming is, the more “normal” it will be for children to identify with and associate with people of other racial groups. It is, however, important for the portrayals to not be stereotyped and to emphasize individual differences.

RACEBENDING.COM: When casting changes like the ones we are protesting happen, can kids perceive how the filmmakers of The Last Airbender discriminated against people of color? What impact might the “whitewashing” of the heroes of The Last Airbender have on children in the audience?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: This is a very good question. As I mentioned above, it is important for children to see themselves represented in the media world. It is also important for them to see other races represented. Thus, cartoons like Avatar can be important both for Asian children as well as children of other racial or ethnic descent.

I think it was an unfortunate decision on the part of the casting directors to choose an overwhelmingly white cast to represent the heroes in the motion picture version of this show. It would have been a great opportunity to portray heroes of other cultural heritage since there already are plenty of movies and shows featuring white heroes.

I understand the argument some have made that this is an American movie and therefore they are trying to cast people who are representative of current day American culture. However, given the fantasy setting and original “location” of the cartoon, I think that argument may be flawed.

Similarly, reality is that children are able to create fantasy games and pretend to be heroes of any ethnic descent, and they don’t always necessarily pick someone of their own cultural heritage. But nonetheless, my argument is that there is a great lack of representation of cultural minorities–especially in heroic roles–and this movie would have been an excellent opportunity to add more representative diversity to the big screen.

There is a great lack of representation of cultural minorities–especially in heroic roles–and [The Last Airbender] would have been an excellent opportunity to add more representative diversity to the big screen.

Unfortunately, I also think that too much emphasis on the race of the movie characters can backfire and send the wrong message to children.

On the one hand we want to have this debate because we believe that Hollywood does have a responsibility to give equal opportunities to various racial/ethnic groups–not just in numbers but in the type of portrayals as well–but on the other hand ,we have to be careful with what message this debate sends to children. They may inadvertently pick up the message that race is an important distinction between people, that they should distinguish between “us” and “them” when it comes to race, and that there are negative characteristics about some racial groups.

We have to be careful with what message this debate sends to children. They may inadvertently pick up the message that race is an important distinction between peoplethat they should distinguish between “us” and “them” when it comes to race, and that there are negative characteristics about some racial groups.

RACEBENDING.COM: We’re heard from parents with confused kids who want to know why the characters no longer look like them, or don’t understand why their parents want to boycott the movie. How should parents explain the casting controversy to their children?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: Putting too much emphasis on the “whitewashing” argument and flat-out boycotting the movie can backfire if parents want their children to grow up with respect for diversity and equality. This goes back to what I mentioned previously about putting too much emphasis on race, thus creating an “us” versus “them” mentality.

My advice would be for the parents to explain to children that heroes come in all colors and from all backgrounds. When cartoons are made into movies, the characters don’t always look the same. However, they still represent the heroes of those cultures.

At the same time, you don’t want to ignore the issue, because that sends the wrong message as well. Young children most likely won’t notice the casting changes, but older children likely will, especially if they have been following the cartoon regularly. Parents may wish to tell their children that the movie directors simply did not do a very good job of casting representative actors to play the roles of the various characters. But they should continue to emphasize to their children that television and movies often do not accurately represent real life (for example, look at the so-called “reality” shows – they often feature a cast of white, middle-class, attractive, fit individuals – leaving out the “average Joe/Jane”, the overweight, the financially challenged, and the less successful).

Teaching children media literacy skills (i.e., being able to critically view and evaluate media content and recognize that it may not be representative of real life) goes a long way.

RACEBENDING.COM: Paramount Pictures told us that their cast is actually more diverse than the animated series, because they’ve casted these white actors to play heroes, and middle eastern-looking actors to play bad guys, and Asian American and Black actors to play villagers. They seemed to suggest that the animated series wasn’t diverse because it only had Asian characters, even though Asia is a very diverse continent. Our argument is that although they may have added more ethnicities to the story, they’ve shoved everyone who isn’t white into secondary roles, which is not equal footing. Do you have any thoughts on the difference between diversity and equality?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: I think the directors may be ignorant of the great diversity that exists within the Asian continent (as so many are). I teach a class on parenting and child care around the world, and most of my students are amazed to hear how many different countries, cultures, norms, and differences there are. I think many Americans think mainly of China and Japan when thinking about Asian countries, and they are generally unaware of the many other countries and cultures make up this big continent.

Thus, while the original cartoon may have been quite diverse, the directors did not see it that way and chose to add additional diversity – in the form of other races/ethnicities – to the movie. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but the unfortunate decision is that it looks like most of the heroic characters are in fact played by white actors while villains and secondary roles are given to minorities (Disclaimer: I have not seen the full cast listing, so I can’t comment in much detail about this).

Diversity and equality is not just about numbers. Just including an equal number of characters from each race is not enough to make a blanket statement about diversity and equality.

Diversity and equality is not just about numbers. Just including an equal number of characters from each race is not enough to make a blanket statement about diversity and equality. As you mentioned, if a movie has a lot of different racial groups represented but one group is mainly represented as the heroes and the other racial groups are presented as villains or in other highly stereotyped manners, then the representation is not equal.

RACEBENDING.COM: One of the critiques of the website or the movement itself is that our protest may be alienating to people who are white. Obviously, the views held by the producers of the movie are not held by everyone who are white, but it is still challenging to approach the subject. The last thing we want is for this to become an “us” versus “them” argument. Especially since we did a survey and actually, over sixty percent of our supporters identified as white or Caucasian!

In your study you found that people can become very uncomfortable with these kinds of dialogue, especially with young children. Do you have any thoughts or advice on how to engage people of all colors in these conversations so no one feels awkward or alienated?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: Race is a very “charged” dialogue subject. Many people – especially white people – are very uncomfortable discussing race and race related topics. I think part of the reason is that this country has a very powerful history of white subordination of Blacks and other minorities, as well as the history of racism and discrimination.

Many whites are afraid that if they mention race, it will be interpreted in the wrong context, and they don’t want to appear biased. Many simply don’t know what to say. I think that among white people there is discomfort and confusion about what is “okay” to say and what is “not okay.”

As for the criticism of the website or movement in terms of alienating white people, I think the people who are most likely to feel alienated or offended are those with white supremacy tendencies. To them, battles for equality and representation by minorities are often interpreted as anti-white sentiments. And as you mentioned, many of your supporters are, in fact, white. Many people, regardless of racial or ethnic background, support equality and fair representation and wish to fight against discrimination and misrepresentation.

But as I mentioned previously, there is a risk involved in these controversies surrounding race. By focusing too much on the “whitewashing” argument, it can in fact backfire and create an “us” versus “them” mentality among some people. The key is to keep the conversation relevant across racial boundaries. I don’t have the magic answer as to how to do this, but it may help to broaden the conversation to include such topics as fair representation for all – including representative portrayals of all racial groups, socioeconomic levels, family status, body type, gender, and more.

There is a risk involved in these controversies surrounding race. By focusing too much on the “whitewashing” argument, it can in fact backfire and create an “us” versus “them” mentality among some people. The key is to keep the conversation relevant across racial boundaries.

As mentioned previously, television and movies present very stereotyped portrayals, and more often than not, racial minorities, low-SES groups, single parents and blended families, overweight people, and women are portrayed negatively, and these portrayals then sustain the existing stereotypes.

The key argument, in my opinion, is that Hollywood has a choice – as do TV producers, video game creators, and the like. They can choose to reinforce existing stereotypes–which is often easier, because it decreases the need for more thorough character development–or they can choose to be more representative of this melting pot that makes up the United States. They can do so both in terms of content, character development, and casting decisions. Some are already doing this, and children’s television has become more diverse during past decades, but we still have a long way to go.

Ultimately, I don’t think the box office for this particular movie will be affected too much by the protest–because they rarely are–, but… I do think the protest has merit, because it creates awareness, and it also sends the message to movie producers that there is in fact an audience for truly representative casting of appropriate ethnicities. Hopefully, this can lead to a greater awareness of the need for representative diversity in the media.

Racebending.com would like to thank Professor Birgitte Vittrup for this interview.

Tak Toyoshima, author of the comic strip Secret Asian Man, is the first and only Asian-American to have a comic strip syndicated and printed in daily newspapers around the country. Secret Asian Man debuted in 1999 and ran in syndication with United Feature Syndicate from July 16, 2007 to September 19, 2009. It was the first ever syndicated comic strip featuring an Asian American lead.

Racebending.com was able to email interview Toyoshima about his work. Interspersed throughout the interview are comic strips excerpted from The Daily Days and Toyoshima’s website..

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

RACEBENDING.COM: Please tell us about yourself and about the Secret Asian Man comic strip.

TAK TOYOSHIMA: I’ve been producing SAM since 1999 in monthly, weekly and daily formats and have enjoyed making every single one of them.

RACEBENDING.COM: Secret Asian Man is famous for its daring social critiques, where characters talk openly about issues like stereotypes, politics, and racism. What inspired you to create comic strips about controversial topics?

TAK TOYOSHIMA: Sometimes it strikes me as odd that talking about things like race, religion, politics…etc would be considered controversial. I think it’s a reflection of how those things are viewed in our society. They are things that, for the most part, aren’t discussed in the open. Usually in a small group among friends. I just want everyone to feel comfortable enough to talk about these things without feeling like they are going to offend anyone or will be made to feel bad about their opinions.

RACEBENDING.COM: Have you ever received any flak for the content of your comic strips?

TAK TOYOSHIMA: I have definitely taken my lumps from readers. My favorite ones are from readers who state they enjoy the strip then proceed to tear me a new one. Mostly people tend to remind me of things they think I am forgetting like if I talk about the Hiroshima, readers bring up the rape of Nanking. But I do love being wrong about things, too because I don’t want to come across as a know-it-all. Because I’m definitely not.

RACEBENDING.COM: Osamu “SAM” Takahashi is one of the very few leading comic strip characters of color. Has it been difficult establishing him in the mainstream because of his ethnicity?

TAK TOYOSHIMA: Very interesting question that I’m not sure I have the answer to. I think there is an undeniable “Asianness” to the strip. Hell, it’s called Secret Asian Man. And in this country, things that are called out as Asian tend to not do so well. It makes people think that that’s all there is to the character. This is why I even posed to question to readers whether or not I should keep the name or change it to something a little less…threatening for lack of a better word.

It’s difficult to establish a comic strip, period. But I do get the sneaky feeling SAM’s ethnicity hasn’t necessarily helped gain acceptance in the mainstream.

RACEBENDING.COM: In your experience, have you found comic characters who are white to be more “neutral” or “universal” while characters of color are viewed as “niche” or with a smaller audience?

TAK TOYOSHIMA: Not necessarily. White people have plenty of character. I think they have a big future in mainstream American culture!

It’s true that ocassionally a character’s ethnicity becomes the focus of their personality but it can also work in our favor. Ninjas are badass. Good math skills CAN come in handy. When I hear people talk about kung-fu movie stereotypes, I start thinking “I LOVE kung-fu movies!” It’s certainly part of Asian culture, why not be proud of it? Well-developed characters almost have to become stereotypes or caricatures so people will know what to expect from them in the context of a story.

The times it does bother me is when characters become limited by their ethnicity. Asian guy can’t speak/read English well. So sorry, bad Engrish. Or when it becomes an easy way to develop a bad guy. Evil Korean dictator or sneaky Chinese spy.

RACEBENDING.COM: Your comic often depicts Sam’s five year old son, Shin, learning about race and ethnicity. This is territory where other comic strips with child characters, like Family Circus and Dennis the Menace, don’t go. What inspired you to depict Shin growing and learning and asking questions that adults might be too scared to ask?

TAK TOYOSHIMA: I would love to read a strip where Dennis the Menace sits down on Mr. Wilson’s porch and asks, “Mr. Wilson, are you old enough to remember lynchings in the South?” Hilarity ensues.

A lot of my wanting to include Shin comes from my years of being a pre-school teacher. Kids are brutally honest and their observations are so spot on that it makes me realize how clouded adult’s heads can become with assumptions and expectations. Getting into Shin’s character helps me to refocus and see things for what they really are.

RACEBENDING.COM: Having commented on Hollywood casting so many times in your comic strip, how did you hear about the casting of The Last Airbender? What was your reaction to it?

TAK TOYOSHIMA:I can’t remember exactly where I heard about the Last Airbender casting but I definitely got all the details at racebending.com. I wasn’t overly shocked, especially after similar treatment of Dragonball and rumors of a live action Akira starring Leonardo DiCaprio(!) that doesn’t take place in Neo-Tokyo. That’s like Gone with the Wind redone during the LA riots…actually, that sounds kinda cool.

The strips began in more of an alternative newsweekly tone where I could get away with a lot more in terms of subject matter. Many of weekly papers straddle the line between humor strip and editorial cartooning. But most editorial cartoonists talk about politics or sports. I saw an opportunty to get something a little different out there and introduce people to an Asian American character to boot!

I think comic strips are a great medium for discussing edgy topics because they are very disarming. Most people expect a gag strip but when they are left with something more thought provoking I think it’s more rewarding. Comic strips lower people’s defenses and if mixed with the right balance of humor and entertainment a comic strip message can go very far.

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If you’re interested in meeting Tak Toyoshima, Secret Asian Man will be at the Boston Comic Con on April 10th and 11th!

You can follow the newest Secret Asian Man strips at the SAM blog.

And if you’d like an autographed copy of Secret Asian Man: The Daily Days of your very own, or original art, visit SAM’s Merch page and tell ‘em Racebending.com sent you! Avatar: The Last Airbender fans may also be interested in some of Toyoshima’s shirts at Blacklava.net, including one that features Aang.

Racebending.com would like to thank Mr. Tak Toyoshima for this interview.

We have to remember that we’re part of a larger, longer struggle, and that people who have tried to create meaningful change have seldom been popular.”

Last month, activist and slam poet Bao Phi published an amazing article on being a “nerd of color” in a world that is not often friendly to either “identity.”

1. it’s not racism, it’s economics
2. this is a white man’s country, deal with it
3. you can’t force politics into art
4. you people always play the race card, etc.

But this can be your strength: being on the side that you’re on, means you’re going to hear every excuse for racism there is. It gives you the opportunity to be ready for the arguments and ready your thoughts. We’re always learning: but at the same time, I’ve been writing and thinking on these issues for a good long while, so I feel I can stand toe to toe with anyone in an argument.

Racebending.com would like to thank Mr. Phi for this interview!

Besides being a fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender, Justine Larbalestier is the author of the Magic or Madness trilogy, and of How to Ditch Your Fairy. Her latest novel, Liar, was released in October 2009 after controversy broke out over the race of the model on its cover. Racebending.com staffer Catherine e-mail interviewed Ms. Larbalestier about The Last Airbender racebending controvery, Liar, and racism in the media.

Her website is http://justinelarbalestier.com/

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

Racebending.com would like to thank Justine Larbalestier for this interview!

On August 19th, 2009, racebending.com staffers Dariane and Marissa interviewed Professor Russell K. Robinson, a Professor of Law at UCLA who specializes in – among other things – media, entertainment, and anti-discrimination law. Robinson’s 2006 paper, Casting and Caste-Ing: Reconciling Artistic Freedom and Antidiscrimination Norms, kicked up some dust in Hollywood trade magazines when it suggested that minority actors may have legal grounds to sue studios over their casting policies. The paper examines the intersection between Title VII – which prohibits discrimination in employment based on race–and the First Amendment–a movie studio’s right to artistic expression.

The following are some excerpts from our conversation with Professor Robinson, arranged by subject.

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

On the argument over whether or not Aang looks white…

“I guess for me it’s less about what we think the original creator intended by drawing these characters in a certain way, and more about the power structure and recognizing that this is not one character in isolation,” Robinson said. “Since they cast all the heroes as white and then the villain as Asian, that to me suggests that there is a broader structure that says “white good, Asian bad,” and we don’t have to rely so much on this one character.”

“We’re not just comparing Aang,” Robinson said, noting that the characters of Katara and Sokka were clearly darker skinned in the animated series. “If you look at the whole structure of it, the pattern, you see…Brown becomes white. And the only brown that stays brown is the enemy. That proves the point–more than isolating one character–as a whole.”

Brown becomes white. And the only brown that stays brown is the enemy.

“There are Supreme Court opinions where an Asian man once argued that he was white, because the immigration law said you could only be admitted if you were of a particular race. And the court had to grapple with that, and it just had to show the ugly business of the government deciding who is white. But if race is a social construction you have to understand that there is blurriness.”

On the “Caucasian or Any Other Ethnicity” casting calls that Paramount used to cast the leads of “The Last Airbender”…

“It seemed like given that source material and the names of the characters they were worried that white actors would not be submitted. So they seemed to make a point: ‘Caucasians; we want you, we’re definitely looking for you.’ But they didn’t make it exclusive, so other people could compete.”

Dariane mentioned that when she and the rest of the Los Angeles Street Team were protesting at Comic Con, many convention goers were shocked by the “Caucasian or any other ethnicity” casting breakdown listing.

“It’s a very blatant reminder, and it’s hard to see–in any other context in this day in age—[a job listing] saying ‘whites preferred,’” Robinson said. “I think most of us believe that we are beyond that. It is striking to see it on the page. They softened it by saying ‘and others,’ but by leading with Caucasian they’re indicating a preference. We prefer whites but we’ll take others as well, we’re [specifically] mentioning whites, only.”

Robinson reminded Racebending.com to look at the casting controversy from Paramount’s perspective. Perhaps Paramount was afraid that non-Asian actors would not audition because the characters in the show were Asian and the names of the characters sound Asian. But Paramount didn’t say “Open to all races, not just Asians.”

They softened it by saying ‘and others,’ but by leading with Caucasian they’re indicating a preference. We prefer whites but we’ll take others as well. We’re [specifically] mentioning whites, only.”

On Paramount’s defense that their casting practices are more “multicultural” than the original series…

“They said it’s more multicultural, but it looks to me like white centrality. They are able to cast Asian kids in the background. But [the Asian American actors] are not able to play the central roles, unless they’re the villains–which very much maps on the pattern that I found [in the study] with white men at the center and the perception that only whites are universal in terms of their appeal.”

“It’s not ‘We want everyone on an even playing field,’” Robinson said. “It’s ‘We really want Caucasians to audition.”

On what Hollywood currently regulates…and what it doesn’t…

Robinson noted that Hollywood does have several self-regulating measures in place, including the MPAA ratings board regarding the depiction of sex and violence.

“Now there’s a lot of discussion about smoking and the need to reduce the depiction of smoking in film,” Robinson said. “My colleague Taimie Bryant pointed out that there is extensive regulation of animals in film, and regulations protecting animals when they’re on the set. But discrimination [laws]—which most of us see as a bedrock civil rights law—isn’t respected in this industry; this industry isn’t bound by them.”

On hiring practices in Hollywood, versus hiring practices elsewhere…

Dariane shared her experience taking an acting class in the theater department at UCLA. “The first thing that they did was look at a roll sheet. And [the instructor] called out our names and we raised our hands, and she looked at us and said, ‘Okay, Caucasian. You can play between these ages, and these are the kinds of roles you would get,” Dariane said. “And I remember, when it came to me, she was like, ‘Okay…what ethnicity are you?’ And she was like, ‘You’re Asian, but you can probably play Latina. I was totally boggled by this, because no where else do you see that.”

“That would be shocking if you were in any other job interview and they asked you that question,” Robinson replied. “It’s not relevant. It shouldn’t be relevant.”

Does casting white actors to play ethnically Asian characters violate equal opportunity employment laws?

“The employment analysis would probably not turn on the race of the role being portrayed, but start from the assumption that the role should be available to everyone– except for my argument that there is a Title VII exception, where this is a role for Asian actors since it is an Asian character.

“That’s an interesting question under Title VII—whether it actually violates a statute. I would argue yes—and people could contest this—because you’re supposedly hiring everyone, but mentioning one race. That is indicating a preference, and that is inequality.”

Robinson offered an example of a job application for a non-Hollywood job that would be in violation if posted. “I’m hiring for a teaching assistant. Anyone can apply—whites especially!”

“The Title VII case law is very clear in other contexts,” Robinson said. “You cannot say: ‘I am discriminating because it will help my business be more profitable.’”

If an argument can be made that Hollywood is breaking employment discrimination laws, why does it go unchecked?

“It just shows that the practice doesn’t match up with the law,” Robinson said. “And I think it’s because people aren’t challenging it and I hope we’ll have actors that actually sue and take that risk.”

On the “artistic license” and racebending is a form of “freedom of expression” defense…

““The argument made, oftentimes, is: ‘the writer wrote this role as a white man and we can’t change his intent.’” Robinson said. “Here [with The Last Airbender] we change the roles for actors of color to white characters–which makes it more bankable. The claim about artistic integrity is usually just a defense of box office expectations.”

“They think that they can make more money if they cast white actors, so the complaint about artistic [license] is usually a cover for casting who they think is more bankable and that really is what’s going on here. Even if it changes the intention of the genesis of the project, and now you have these white heroes and a throng of Asians that they are leading, [to Paramount] those leaps of logic are more forgivable, because they think that whites are more bankable.”

“To me, the only time when it is legitimate to take race into account is when the storyline requires it–but here artistic integrity is dropped because of profitability. I think at the end of the day Hollywood only cares about dollars more than a particular artistic vision.”

On race and perceived box office “bankability”…

“I think that part of bankability or perceived bankability is race,” Robinson said. “The industry thinks that unknown white child actors are more appealing and generate more box office than child actors of color.”

Robinson presented a new theory on Paramount’s motivations for casting white actors, noting that in the past, Hollywood has avoided non-white, pan-ethnic casting in films. For example, a black actress was not cast opposite Will Smith in the film Hitch, allegedly out of concern that if the cast had too many black actors, the viewing public would write off the film as targeted for black audiences only, instead of for mainstream audiences. This was despite the fact that Will Smith is a Hollywood A-lister and one of the biggest box office draws in Hollywood.

“I think that’s what the calculus is, that white kids will be seen as sort of ‘universal’–a movie for everyone. While, if you see all Asian kids on the poster, then it might signal that this is a movie just for Asians and not white people, black people, Latino people…

“I find it troubling–the assumption that only whites can appeal to everybody, and if only people of color appear, it signals that it’s a ‘ghetto.’ It’s not dissimilar to neighborhoods where real estate agents are afraid of too many black people in the neighborhood because of the ‘nice white family.’ So it’s a very similar phenomenon where they try to limit people of color—to the extent that they feature people of color, it’s in marginal secondary roles. So you have to have that white, central, usually male character, and it seems like by making the central male character white, they think it’s making it more ‘open.’”

On the lack of Asian American actors in Hollywood…

Robinson shared an anecdote where he met with an influential casting director in Hollywood after his 2006 paper received attention in the press. He was told that Hollywood was looking to cast diverse actors, but there were not any ‘qualified’ Asian actors. After Robinson pressed them to qualify that statement further, the casting director said that there are so few professionally trained Asian American actors (never mind that East West Players, a theater troupe founded by late Avatar: The Last Airbender voice actor Mako Iwamatsu, specializes in training aspiring Asian American actors.) The casting director reasoned that this was because “Asian American culture does not support acting.”

Robinson responded to the casting director: “If that’s true—and I’m not saying it is—maybe it’s because you don’t show any Asians on TV! Why would you think you could pay your bills working in this profession? Why invest in acting classes, Julliard tuition, if there won’t be any work for you after you become trained? Hollywood doesn’t see their own role in sending signals to people of color that there are no opportunities for them.”

Hollywood doesn’t see their own role in sending signals to people of color that there are no opportunities for them.”

On industry professionals concerned about speaking out, afraid of being blacklisted…

Marissa mentioned that many actors and industry professionals we’ve communicated with are reluctant to voice dissent over these discriminatory casting practices.. This was especially true of up and coming Asian American actors, and even some organizations–they voiced concerns about being blacklisted.

“It’s strange that they are so concerned about losing opportunities,” Robinson said, pointing out: “There are so few roles for Asian Americans, anyway, so what do you have to lose?”

On the power the creators or M. Night might have, and NDAs (Non-disclosure Agreements)…

When the Second Season DVD of the animated series came out, M. Night and the creators Mike DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko announced in a featurette that they planned on casting unknowns for all of the roles. Of course, with Jackson Rathbone cast as Sokka and Jesse McCartney and Dev Patel cast as Zuko, things did not work out that way.

“It’s likely based on the standard form of contracts in the industry that the creators don’t have any right to shape casting, unless you’re a very influential writer,” Robinson explained. “So they probably have no legal right to have any say. And there might be some language in the contract restricting their ability to say anything negative about the film. They could be at risk of losing their fees or burning bridges so there is a lot of economic pressure on them.”

“It is hard to think of a more powerful Asian American in the industry, but the reality is that M. Night [Shyamalan] has not had a hit in a while and even if he said ‘I’m going to cast whoever I want and you can’t object to that!’ at this point in his career he might have to play ball. If there is a producer or executive saying he wants white leads… the very fact is that people of color who are very powerful still don’t seem to have the power to create very diverse casts. Even people who seem like they are very influential are limited in what they can do. I think Halle Berry and Denzel Washington have said there are roles that they are not sent because they are black.”

On what a grassroots movement such as racebending.com could do to fight discrimination, and why it’s important…

Robinson referred to González v. Abercrombie & Fitch, an anti-discrimination case where “a grassroots student-led campaign led to a lawsuit.”

“[A lawsuit] would not produce a lot of money, but maybe it could be a groundbreaking case that would really break the playing field. I think if producers were afraid of being sued for their casting practices, they would change them. They would have to at least audition the many kids of color not being included.”

I think if producers were afraid of being sued for their casting practices, they would change them. They would have to at least audition the many kids of color not being included.

“The challenge is to get people seeing this as a priority and people getting affected. People see it as entertainment, not as important, it’s only one industry—but one of the most influential industries. If you look at all the kids that watch films and TV, and don’t see themselves represented, it’s a concern we should take very seriously; not something that’s marginal. We can see Sasha and Malia in the White House, but we can’t see Asian kids playing the leads of this film.”

Racebending.com would like to thank Prof. Robinson for this interview!

Fans and professionals attending the 2009 San Diego Comic-Con discuss the casting of The Last Airbender.

Featuring:

• Jerry Holkins of Penny Arcade
• Sandeep Parikh of The Legend of Neil and The Guild
• Gene Yang, writer of National Book Award finalist American Born Chinese
• Keith Chow, editor of comics anthology Secret Identities

Professor Rebecca Bigler is the Director of the Gender and Racial Attitudes Lab, at the University of Texas at Austin. Professor Bigler has written several famous studies on how young children view race, and how attitudes and beliefs towards race and gender may be formed. Her research was recently featured in the Newsweek magazine cover story, “Even Babies Discriminate.”

On September 16th, 2009, Racebending co-founder Marissa conducted a phone and email interview with Professor Bigler about her research, the casting of The Last Airbender, children, media, and the formation of racial attitudes, and how society deals with race issues in general.

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

RACEBENDING.COM: Your study, “Shades of Meaning: Skin Tone, Racial Attitudes, and Constructive Memory in African American Children,” involved reading illustrated stories to children of color featuring characters with lighter and darker shades of skin. Children were then tested ten minutes later how they remembered the story, to see if they would correctly remember what happened, or automatically attribute lighter skinned characters with a positive role in the story, and darker skinned characters with a negative role in the story.

PROFESSOR BIGLER: We did a whole separate study on occupational stereotyping, too–the point of which shows that even in elementary school, kids know that white people have higher status jobs than black people do. This “Shades of Meaning” study was showing that even kids—African American kids—start to develop stereotypes of their own racial group, and some of those relate to skin color. Being light skinned goes with better things…

RACEBENDING.COM: To me it was interesting because it was about characters in storytelling, and film is a form of storytelling.

PROFESSOR BIGLER: That study shows that children hold stereotypes, and distort stories and movies to make them fit their views.

Children hold stereotypes, and distort stories and movies to make them fit their views.”

RACEBENDING.COM: Where do those views come from?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: I’ve been working on it—over the last ten years— to figure out where kids’ racial attitudes come from. One place, it looks like, is the media.

But the big story goes—and I did send you the long paper with the big theoretical model…

From the beginning, what we think happens is children look at people, and they vary in countless ways—height, weight, attractiveness, blue & brown eyes, right and left handed, earlobes attached or not attached. Children can see all of those things, and they can see race. They are not colorblind. They can see black and white people, boys and girls, tall and short, unattractive and attractive, all of that.

And children decide which of those things are important and “How should I view people.” We argue they don’t have any innate way of doing it. To see which [aspects] are important, they look to the social world. And how race gets to be important to them, from the social world, is that they see segregation.

In most of the kids’ worlds, they see that white people hang out with white people, black people with black people, Latino people with Latino people, Asian people with Asian people… so even in integrated schools—see the book Why are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria–we know people clump together.

Children see that. And if no one explains segregation to young children, then they think people hang out like that because they are different kinds of people. [Kids conclude:] “Black and whites would hang out if they were the same, but they don’t, so they must be different.” That’s what makes them think racial groupings are important.

Then they start to figure out….”If white people are different from black people, if Asian people different from Latino people, then I have to figure out how they are different.” Nobody sits kids down anymore and does this explicitly anymore—sit kids down to explain the differences. Well, except for maybe Neo-nazis. But the rest of us don’t talk to our kids about race–white people especially; most try to pretend that they just don’t see it. So kids are really left to trying to figure out themselves what it means to be black, white, Asian, Latino…

So they construct ideas based on what they see in the media, the model. And it’s implicit, not explicit. And it doesn’t take a while to look around and see that in the media, white people do better stuff than black people and mostly the representations of Asians are so few and far between.

If you’re interested in Asian stereotypes and prejudice there is not much support in developmental psychology on the topic. Most of what we know is from stereotyping of African Americans, and some studies on Latinos.

When you look around it’s pretty clear. I’ve been studying the Presidency, and pretty much all kids know that all of the past presidents have been white. (NOTE: Bigler’s study was conducted in 2006, before Obama’s election drew extra attention about this fact to schoolchildren.)

By the time kids are six, the majority of six year olds know all the presidents have been white and men.

This means that Asian kids still know that there are no Asian American US Presidents, and there never have been. Girls—there have been no female presidents, and there never have been. And kids are not dumb. They know that being President is about having power, and being smart, and having good leadership skills.

When we did our study, we asked kids why there aren’t any black or girl presidents and one-third of the kids said “They’re not smart enough to be. They’re not strong enough to be. They have bad leadership skills. They must be bad at it.” That makes sense to them, because no one has explained otherwise to them, and they are trying to figure it out. I remember interviewing a girl who said girls can’t be president because they’re not as smart as boys. To hear that coming from a girl, that just breaks your heart.

When we did our study, we asked kids why there aren’t any black or girl presidents and one-third of the kids said ‘They’re not smart enough to be. They’re not strong enough to be. They have bad leadership skills. They must be bad at it!’

“That makes sense to them, because no one has explained otherwise to them, and they are trying to figure it out.”

RACEBENDING.COM: How does seeing people of their ethnicity frequently portrayed in negative or stereotypic roles in media, popular culture, and society affect children?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: If you watch TV it doesn’t take long to see that white people are associated with power, money, influence, leadership and African American characters are associated with crime, sometimes athleticism…

Kids get the message from the worlds they see. “Different people, hanging out from different places, different racial attributes.” They are already “stereotypers” by the time they are four.

Parents of color do things a little differently than white parents. Most white parents don’t think about race, or talk about it—they act colorblind. Parents of color are more likely to talk about race than white parents as they don’t have the luxury of ignoring it.

RACEBENDING.COM: Throughout the protest we’ve been told by our detractors that “children do not see race.” Do children see ‘race,’ and if so, to what extent?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Children notice racial differences by about six months of age. Of course, they are unlikely to understand racial groups in the same way that adults do. Nonetheless, they are not colorblind and notice the difference between African American and European Americans.

Children notice racial differences by about six months of age. Of course, they are unlikely to understand racial groups in the same way that adults do. Nonetheless, they are not colorblind and notice the difference between African American and European Americans.”

RACEBENDING.COM: Is the ability to “see” race innate, or learned?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: It’s innate in the sense that they innately can see color. You pretty much have to have your eyes not function to not see dark skin, light skin.

RACEBENDING.COM: But what about other ethnicities? Could they be able to tell the difference between say, a European American and an Asian American, when both have relatively “pale” skin? The reason why I ask is because one of the arguments we’ve faced is that since one of the main characters in the franchise [Aang] is pale-skinned and does not have slanty eyes, he “must be white”—despite all evidence, including his language, dress, and culture—indicating otherwise.

PROFESSOR BIGLER: I don’t know of a study about children being able to differentiate between Asian and White. If you held skin color constant, and can the kid tell the difference? I don’t know if anybody’s done that study. You’d be comparing things about physiogamy–eye shape, and hair…We do know kids notice hair a lot and that’s how they differentiate genders. Long hair: that’s a girl. Short hair: that’s a boy.

We do know young children focus a lot on what they can see. For example, in [our research lab] in Texas, young people can’t tell who is Latino. When they are looking at you they can’t see your culture. If you’re blonde and light skinned and speak English they can’t tell you’re Latino, even if you are. Even if you’re a Mexican American but don’t “look it,” they treat you by how you look.

Kids have excellent color receptors in their eyes. But all that’s to say, if I showed you a white person, and suddenly replaced it of a different race, all of what we know to date shows that even a baby would notice that. If you took an Asian cast and replaced it will all white people, kids old enough to go to a movie would notice. They would not be fooled and say, oh those are the same kinds of people.

One question would be—in the original cartoons, what would kids know [about the ethnicities of the characters]? Would they pay attention to the language, cultural traditions, when they deciding what the people were? I know of no research that addresses that.

RACEBENDING.COM: So the changes may be more obvious to them with the heroic characters who clearly had darker skin on the show [like Sokka and Katara], who are now the palest characters in the movie cast.

PROFESSOR BIGLER: There’s one of the messages that is now missing—associating dark skin tone with good things. Which is just too bad–badly affecting Asian and other children of color, but also affecting white children. All children need to see models of that message.

It’s [also] a terrible shame for white kids, that they don’t get to see Asian characters be strong, powerful, and heroes. And what white kids are missing is learning to associate other groups with these wonderful traits, as well.”

White parents ought to say: “I won’t take my kid to this movie because my kids see plenty of white heroes.” It’s a terrible shame for white kids, that they don’t get to see Asian characters be strong, powerful, and heroes. And what white kids are missing is learning to associate other groups with these wonderful traits as well. And here [with The Last Airbender] you have this great chance to present Asian groups as heroes for white kids to see–and white kids are being robbed of that chance.

RACEBENDING.COM: Pretty much all children, no matter what their race or ethnicity, are being robbed of that chance.

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Yes! That’s one of the frustrations where a lot of white parents may say: “This is a minority issue” or “What does it matter to me if the character is no longer Asian,” and the problem is, their kids may grow up to be more racist, if they don’t get more depictions [of characters of color.]

RACEBENDING.COM: We’ve actually received a lot of comments from parents who are white and readers who are white, and they’re angry. They feel the studios assumed white people are too racist to accept a film that wasn’t cast like this. They feel condescended to.

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Low status groups pay attention to high status groups because they have to, to some degree. And what you find is the high status group refuses to pay attention to the low status group.

In the case of gender, what is really well known is girls will watch shows with boy characters, but boys will not watch shows with girl characters. Girls grow up and girls really can’t show an in-group bias—one where “I only like girls and only will pay attention to girls, etc.” You really can’t be like that because boys run so many things. You can’t escape the influence of boys.

And, boys can and do say, “I hate girls; I don’t want to pay any attention to them, that show’s for girls.” So we know there are many, many, many books and shows with boy characters than girl characters, and when you make a girl character no one watches it but girls.

RACEBENDING.COM: Actually, this was a controversy within Avatar: The Last Airbender, too. The creators had to push the higher-uppers to add female characters. The thought was that too many strong female characters would turn boy viewers away, and that girls wouldn’t want to watch Avatar since it was martial-arts fantasy and therefore a boy’s show. The creators really advocated that the girl characters should have equal standing and prominence on the show. Because of that, a lot of girls became fans of the series.

But when toys were made for the animated series, none of the girl characters were made into action figures. Even background male characters were made into action figures, so those assumptions were still there.

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Girls will read all about Harry Potter, and go to the movies. But if the whole series was about Hermione Granger, the boys would not [be as interested.] To some degree the exact same thing is true of race. If you have shows with only black casts, about black families, largely, white viewers won’t care, don’t go, don’t buy it.

RACEBENDING.COM: There is also a fear that audiences respond differently to movies when they have mono-ethnic casts of people of color. For example, when a film has an all-African American cast, a theatergoer might assume that the film is only targeting a limited African American audience. The casting of white actors is supposed to have “universal appeal.” What are your thoughts on how the concept of white as “universal” in Hollywood has come about?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Largely it comes to marketing numbers, and [Hollywood] pays attention, and they figure out who watches out and buys what. And in the case of minorities like Asian and African Americans they’re too small a number of the population, so it’s a financial thing. There are many more white people as potential audience members.

RACEBENDING.COM: But people of color will still go to movies that feature predominantly white casts, like Fast and the Furious attracting a predominantly Latino market. Why doesn’t it happen the other way around?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Women will go watch films with men in it, but men will not go to chick flicks. Women are lower power, lower status, and men do not need to pay attention to us, so they don’t. They have an in-group bias.

And research clearly shows that children do have an in-group bias. What I’m famous for is the experiment where we put some kids in red shirts others in blue shirts. It doesn’t take a lot, but after a few environmental messages, then the blue shirts think they’re better than red shirts, and red shirts think they are better than blue shirts—even though they’re exactly the same shirt otherwise.

Human beings can have a bias: ‘Whatever group I’m in is better than yours…’”

Human beings can have a bias: “Whatever group I’m in is better than yours.” But then, groups aren’t equal, so what happens is…

Girls start out kind of thinking “we are better” but it is really clear, pretty fast, that they are not. There are no female presidents, for example, so they start to think they are not as smart as boys.

And African American, Latino, Asian…those kids say, well it would be nice to think we are better than them but there are no Asian presidents. And big bankers, high powered people, people on TV, even teachers at my school–they all look white. We must not be better than them. So that low status group pays attention. They cannot have an in-group bias and they must pay attention, and “If the world is full of powerful white people I have to go to their movies and listen to what they say.”

If you went to school and ignored white people—you wouldn’t know about history, literature –stories largely about white men. They learn to pay attention, because they have to, while white kids learn there is really no need for me to pay attention to Asian people, stories, culture, or characters.

RACEBENDING.COM: What role does the media play in informing children’s perceptions of race? In your opinion, are there any differences in how white children view/interpret media, versus how children of color might view/interpret media?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: I don’t know about race differences in children’s “interpretation” of media but children show preferences for their own race by the preschool years. White children are especially likely to prefer white children over other-race children. They are likely, therefore, to prefer media that feature children of their own race.

RACEBENDING.COM: Do children have the observational skills to notice situations like the fact that a character who was once Inupait on the show, like Sokka, is now white in the movie?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Yes–even young children would notice a change in an individual’s racial group membership, just as easily as they would notice a change in gender.

Even young children would notice a change in an individual’s racial group membership,just as easily as they would notice a change in gender.”

RACEBENDING.COM: But could a kid perceive how the filmmakers of The Last Airbender discriminated against people of color?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: No. And that’s why the question about parents talking [is so important.]

I think parents need to be very open about expressing their views: what they liked, didn’t liked, why they went to the movie or not. It may be taking a child to the movie and then sitting down and saying, “What did the people look like in the movie? They looked a lot like us, didn’t they?”—if they’re white—and “Jeez that’s kind of too bad, since really the story was about people who looked like X and let’s look go on the internet and learn what they are like. Why do you think they changed them to look like us?” Even a six year old can have that conversation.

RACEBENDING.COM: Many of our supporters are parents who have children who are fans of the Avatar: The Last Airbender franchise. Some of their kids have been asking why Aang is no longer Asian, like them. Other kids don’t understand why their parents will not be taking them to see this movie.

PROFESSOR BIGLER: For Asian children, it is really perfectly appropriate for an Asian parent to not take the child to see the movie and explain, “I am really disappointed, and my feelings are hurt. It is unfair. We know they were Asian, but the movie made them white.” Explain that some white people are prejudiced against Asians.

RACEBENDING.COM: How should parents addressing the casting controversy with their children?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Parents should be very clear and honest, brought down to language a six year old can understand. You may not want to use the word “discrimination,” but you can use the world “unfair.” Even by three children understand fair and unfair.

You can also talk about how your feelings are hurt. “The [casting of The Last Airbender] made me feel bad, like our culture isn’t as valuable. It feels like other people don’t want to appreciate the customs and histories of people related to us in history.”

I think that parents — white and Asian — should explain to children that people are sometimes treated unfairly on the basis of their racial or ethnic group membership. That is, they should introduce the idea of racial discrimination.

Research suggests that parents shouldn’t over-emphasize the frequency of racial discrimination but a parent could say…”I was very disappointed that the people who made this movie took characters who were Asian and made them White. I don’t think that was right. We see lots of movies about White people and they are often great movies. But I think that we should find a good movie about Asians instead of this movie.”

RACEBENDING.COM: So if kids can notice it, then what might the impact on them be? Is it something they might just accept? What potential impact does the “whitewashing” of the heroes of The Last Airbender have on children in the audience?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: We need more research on the consequences of kids figuring out that there’s discrimination in the world. There’s not much research. We are starting to study children’s perceptions of discrimination in our lab, and what the research is suggesting is that children tend not to perceive discrimination. It really has to be pretty blatant for them to perceive, compared to adults. And it may not be especially troubling to them. It’s hard to know.

A kid who loves the animated series, might be really quite disappointed. A child who wasn’t really involved or didn’t love it might be like, “oh, who cares.” Certainly your average white kid won’t care, though they should. The white parents could step up and say: “It should make all of us sort of sad that they did this.”

It’s hard to predict, how troubling it would be to an Asian American child. But we have found that when it comes to talking about discrimination, research suggests that it doesn’t devastate children. They seem able to think about it, to cope and to say, that’s too bad. And then it might give them a little buffer to maintain self esteem and say, “It’s not really that we’re bad or something is wrong with us, that we can’t be leads in movies–but that some white people are prejudiced and would not go to the movie and it wouldn’t make as much money, and that’s why they did it.”

Your young children—it will—they’ll be a little mystified. Young children won’t know as much about movie production, box office gross…that would all have to be explained to a child.

We have found that when it comes to talking about discrimination, research suggests that it doesn’t devastate children…

“It might give [Asian American kids] a little buffer to maintain self esteem and say, ‘It’s not really that we’re bad or something is wrong with us, that we can’t be leads in movies–but that some white people are prejudiced and would not go to the movie and it wouldn’t make as much money, and that’s why they did it.’”

RACEBENDING.COM: What messages, intentional or unintentional, does this casting send to children?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Children readily identify the correlates of race. For example, elementary school-age children (both African American and European American) associate White people with higher status occupations than Black people. Media that depict whites as heroes and people of color as victims contribute to the development of biased views of the attributes of racial groups.

I don’t know of a single study—but it would be a great study to do. Sit kids down and say, “Here’s the TV show, but when they made the movie they made the characters white. Why do you think they did that”

Media that depict whites as heroes and people of color as victims contribute to the development of biased views of the attributes of racial groups.”

RACEBENDING.COM: Wow, now I wish I had a classroom of kids to ask, to see what their responses were.

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Like when we asked kids why the presidents are all white men, and we were—frankly–shocked by some of their responses. In 2006, 1 out of 4 kids we interviewed said: “It’s because it’s against the law in America for a black person to be president!” That’s what made our mouth drops open.

Same with a female president. One in four children, in a different group we interviewed, said it was against the law. We had no anticipation that they would say that sort of thing.

We are currently in the middle of writing up a huge study with new kids about their views of the 2008 election.

RACEBENDING.COM: Well, speaking of Obama and how people see him as role model for children…How important is it for kids to have heroes who “look like me”?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: I can’t answer the question—but I think everybody’s got instincts, and almost all developmental psychologists’ gut instincts say that it is important to have role models who look like you and do positive things, which is why people say Obama is so important to African American children as this role model.

But to really answer the question, what you’d have to do is raise a group of kids with no models and see what’s happened to them, and no one has ever done it in a scientific setting, so it’s hard to know. It’s hard to answer “What happens when you have no models?”

There are no kids who have no models at all. For example, Asian kids have Asian parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles and cousins who all do wonderful things. They have models. Though, they have no president of the United States, so you could ask what having no model of someone who has never been a national leader does to children in your group?

It’s not all that clear. What’s interesting is, in our research, we found that African American kids were just as interested as white kids in being president–even at the time, there had never been a black president. Some people thought maybe black kids would not want to be president as much, as they had never seen it, but that wasn’t true at all. Some kids even said” I want to be president because I want to be the first!”

It is important, but, in my view, it is also important that children learn that heroes come from all racial groups. Children of color are exposed to other-race heroes very frequently. White children are rarely exposed to other-race heroes.

It is also important that children learn that heroes come from all racial groups.”

RACEBENDING.COM: Your studies—like the one with the red and blue t-shirts—found that children tend to prefer others from the same “group” as them. Is it harder for children to accept characters and heroes of an ethnicity different from them?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Yes. I think the answer is yes. Especially without support from the environment, and this is where parenting comes in. That, left to their own devices, especially the “superior” group—white kids—really will have a harder time, and we know from tons of psychological data, similarities are really powerful things. Similarity promotes liking. People like other people who are similar to them. And that’s just been found a bazillion times.

Here’s a little white kid looking at an Asian kid, how are they supposed to like them? There is not a lot of data on how you could get them to like them but one hypothesis—mine—is that if parents say, “You need to like people who look different, and talk different, and walk different from you; because they are interesting and wonderful and they will enrich your life.”

If you tell kids to stick to people who talk like you, dress like you, look like you because it’s “safe,” then they’ll do that. If you say, and model, and have friends who look all sorts of ways and take them to diverse neighborhoods and give them cultural experiences that are different, then you say to a kid that difference isn’t scary. Difference isn’t wrong, or bad, or be avoided. Difference is wonderful and interesting and enriching. But I think the parents have got to say that to their kids–because our culture doesn’t.

RACEBENDING.COM: We’ve pointed out that kids didn’t dislike Russell–the Asian kid in Up–or Aang or Sokka in Avatar, just because they were not the same ethnicity as them. They were still big fans of these characters, because the characters were brave and inquisitive and funny, just like them.

PROFESSOR BIGLER: There are a lot of dimensions of similarity. But I do worry about parents who say, “Well, you can like this black child because he’s just like you. He’s in first grade, too. And he plays basketball, just like you.” Then the message is “You should like people who are just like you. Ignore that his face isn’t like yours, but he’s fundamentally like you so that’s who you should like.”

Any time you say to a child “You should like him, he’s just like you–regardless of race,” you still reinforce this message: Like people who are just like you.

My favorite anecdote about that is this: If I came home and came back to my kid and said “I met this woman today. We had so much in common and really liked her!” My kid would understand me.

But if I said, “I met this woman today and we had nothing in common. I really liked her!” That doesn’t make sense in English–which shows just how much in our culture we accept the premise that “You like you like people who are like you.” It may not be race, but you better like the same things, eat the same things…

I’m wildly optimistic, and I don’t think a lot of people think like me in the field, but I believe you can raise a kid to say: “I met some kids who weren’t like me. They were hardly like me and they were great! I really liked them! I got to try a new food I’d never had before, or participate in a new custom and it was really cool.”

Any time you say to a child ‘You should like him, he’s just like you–regardless of race,’ you still reinforce this message: Like people who are just like you.”

It would be interesting to compare kids who have been abroad a lot, since the kind of parents who do that are people who travel to different countries because they are in heaven trying new things and meeting new people who don’t look, talk, act, speak the same language they do. But most Americans are not like that. Many do not even leave their own country. We hang with people who look, talk, act, dress, just like us.

And it’s too bad because movies have that way—if you can’t travel to Asia, wouldn’t it be cool if you could say—go watch a movie, have a rich experience of this other culture? It would just be so wonderful. Why would you only want to see movies about middle class white people just like you?

RACEBENDING.COM: There are definitely movie studios and television studios adding diversity to their programs. Dora the Explorer, Ni-Hao, Kai-Lan, the first African American Disney princess… Even the original Avatar TV show was very diverse, before the characters were changed for this movie. Will these new popular programs impact how children view race and culture?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Probably if they’ll see them. The best evidence comes form things like Sesame Street. This isn’t a new idea; it’s been around since the sixties that media directed at children should promote diversity. Sesame Street has been involved in that for forty years and its decent evidence that it works; that children who watch Sesame Street are more accepting.

The effects aren’t like wildly powerful—not what you’d want. It’s not true that if you watch a few shows, suddenly you’re not prejudiced. It helps, and what really helps is if you also have parents who sit down and reinforce that—parents who show appreciation for diversity.

So you can’t just show kids the show. As a parent you need to say, “This was a great show because I loved learning about this culture. And I loved that character.” And to say, “Gee, I wish I had a friend just like that.” Reinforce pretty explicitly that the diversity was one of the things you liked about the show.

It’s not true that if you watch a few shows, suddenly you’re not prejudiced. It helps, and what really helps is if you also have parents who sit down and reinforce that—parents who show appreciation for diversity.”

RACEBENDING.COM: Do you think there’s a difference when shows draw attention to a character’s ethnicity–”Dora is Latina!” compared to shows or movies where the ethnicity of the character is never explicitly mentioned?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: I wonder if we did a study about Up and you went and asked white kids if [Russell] was white or Asian, what would happen. My research seems to show shows that kids will change characters to be white whenever possible.

It’s just like the memory studies [referenced earlier in the interview.] We had a study about a white character and a black character where the white character did something bad, and a black character did something good, and we asked the kids to recall who did the bad thing—they’ll always remember when the black person did something bad, but the memory rates really go down when it’s a white person. And kids will even switch it so that they remember that a black person did the bad thing, even if he didn’t.

Study after study shows that kids distort counter-stereotypic information. If the model in the movie is against what they think, they really are active in changing it and distorting it. So if you don’t make a big deal, then there is a chance the white kids will just turn the character into a white kid, and forget the parts that make the character Asian. The more you make it harder to forget that, the better.

RACEBENDING.COM: It’s not just white kids. A lot of adults have also said that since Avatar is set in a fantasy world, there is no way the characters can be Asian, so they automatically default to white.

PROFESSOR BIGLER: I have seen some of this, too. I think some people might think “Those people just look white.” Like in joint collaborations between Japan and the United States, such as Power Rangers, where if characters look “white enough” or you can’t see their faces, then white kids may assume “These characters are white!”

One possibility –while I don’t know anything about Avatar—is that one possibility is that white kids think they’re watching white characters in Avatar. They don’t think it’s Asian at all, that it’s a fantasy land and those people are just white people in some magical, made-up place.

RACEBENDING.COM: Since the show never explicitly says, “Oh, this character is inspired from the cultures of Tibet!” we can’t prove the characters are Asian to some viewers, even if we have tons of visual evidence. Why is it so hard to convince stubborn folks that characters should not have to be “White until proven Asian?”

PROFESSOR BIGLER: If white people have an in-group preference and want to see whiteness, then they do. Until you make it so blatant that they just can’t hold onto the belief that they’re white anymore.

A lot of that might go over kid’s heads. Kids may not be able to identify Asian architecture, Asian clothing nearly as well as adults can. That may just be going completely over their head. A white kid might be looking at [Aang] and saying “That kid looks like me, and is like me. I’m white, so he must be white, too.”

If white people have an in-group preference and want to see whiteness, then they do. Until you make it so blatant that they just can’t hold onto the belief that [the characters are] white anymore.”

RACEBENDING.COM: Quite frequently, the “colorblind” or “the race of the actor doesn’t matter to me, why does it matter to you?” argument pops up in defense of the casting. Any insights as to why people in support of the movie might use this argument to put people who are critical of the cast on the defensive?

PROFESSOR BIGLER: What research shows is that many white people have really adopted a colorblind mentality. “I’m not racist. I don’t even see race; no one should! It’s racist to do that!”

And where it comes from is partly this misunderstanding of Martin Luther King Jr.’s message about judging people “by the content of their character.” A colorblind person may argue, “I’m paying attention to your character. I’m not even seeing your race. Isn’t that what I’m supposed to do?”

I think it comes out of white people’s luxury of not needing to see race—if you are benefitting from the inequality there is no motivation for you to pay attention to race. The problem with colorblind is that—while colorblind is a great strategy in a world that is fair and equal and without racial discrimination—this world still has problems with racial inequality and racial prejudice. So if you’re colorblind, then what you are really doing is systematically ignoring and putting your head in the sand about racial inequalities, by saying: “I can’t see them, because I can’t see race.”

If you’re colorblind, then what you are really doing is systematically ignoring and putting your head in the sand about racial inequalities, by saying: ‘I can’t see them, because I can’t see race.’”

RACEBENDING.COM: I know my argument, and the argument of many other people of color, is to say that “You can ignore my ethnicity and say it doesn’t matter to you. It matters to me and is a part of my identity and you should see that if you want to see all aspects of me.”

PROFESSOR BIGLER: Rather that just say you are insulted and angry and emphasize the impact on you, it may be more persuasive to also say, “It’s too bad that white kids may group up to be prejudiced; to have only white friends, live in all-white communities, and only read books about white people. Their lives are impoverished by it, and they don’t benefit from the incredibly complex world out there, because they are ignoring so much of it, and that just hurts them.”

Think of all of the literature you’ won’t read is all you read is white middle class people like you, the art you’ll never look at, the countries you’ll never visit. Kids who grow up saying “I care about diversity and seeking out people who are different; I want the world to be more fair to everyone,” have richer, wonderful, more complex lives.

RACEBENDING.COM: We were talking about the difficulty of discussing racism on our online community, and one of the posters pointed out that in American society, being racist is conflated with being “a bad person” or “evil.”

PROFESSOR BIGLER: That’s a very insightful observation. Many white people are nervous about being associated with [racism], and that’s where “If I’m colorblind then I cannot be accused of being racist” might come from.

RACEBENDING.COM: People don’t want to think of themselves as a “bad,” so they’d rather pretend that nothing is wrong and not talk about the problem at all. We talked about how; perhaps the condemnation of racism is so harsh that fear of being condemned might actually impede constructive discussion about racism.

PROFESSOR BIGLER: White people get very nervous about being seen as racist. I think it is because it is equated with morality. It’s not saying like “I’m bad at math.” Being bad at math it doesn’t make you immoral, or unethical. But if you say “I’m bad at race relations,” then you’re seen as immoral, unethical— instead of someone who may need to learn more about it.

And the other part of it that is debated is, I think most white people don’t want to be racist. It really does go against their morals and it’s very hard for them to take. And white children may be more ignorant [about racism], since again white parents don’t talk about it, and they may hang out only with other white kids. They may just end up so ignorant about racism, and what it is, and where it operates–and where there are racial inequalities in the world. Being ignorant as a function of their upraising, makes it difficult to discuss race…

White people get very nervous about being seen as racist. I think it is because it is equated with morality.

“It’s not saying like ‘I’m bad at math.’ Being bad at math it doesn’t make you immoral, or unethical. But if you say ‘I’m bad at race relations,’ then you’re seen as immoral, unethical— instead of someone who may need to learn more about it.”

RACEBENDING.COM: And no one would want to admit the possibility that they could be racist without trying, or racist without knowing it…

PROFESSOR BIGLER: We are doing a study with white mothers and white kids who come into the lab. The kids fill out a questionnaire, and then the mothers guess their kids attitudes about race. And the mothers are totally wrong! The kids are racist, and the mother doesn’t know it.

Add the mothers are shocked and horrified. They’ll tell us, “I‘m so embarrassed and I don’t know why this happens, I don’t know what to do or say…how do I fix this?” And you just see how much experience they lack, what they don’t know…they haven’t had to think very carefully about any of this stuff.

And so we say to them things like, “Well, you live in a white neighborhood and your children go to a mostly white school. Also, the people who come over to visit your home are almost always white. We think that your kid might be assuming that this is because you don’t like black people. Maybe that’s what’s happening.”

We all need to try to be more understanding. And it will benefit us to have a more complex understanding of each other and of race and ethnicity in the world. If you don’t like something, you’ve got to complain and take action, so I totally support your efforts.

RACEBENDING.COM: Thank you!

Racebending.com would like to thank Prof. Bigler for this interview!