Actor and activist Chaske Spencer was born of the Lakota Sioux tribe, and raised on Indian Reservations in Montana and Idaho. He broke into the off-Broadway theater scene playing the title role in Dracula and is best known for playing werewolf alpha Sam Uley in the Twilight saga.

Racebending.com contributor Gabriel Canada interviewed Chaske Spencer over the phone on August 17th, 2010.

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

It is a long journey from the Northern Cheyenne and Nez Perce reservations of Chaske Spencer’s childhood to red carpet premieres filled with screaming fans in Hollywood and across the globe–a journey through the games of Hollywood, and one that saw Chaske in jail and confronting addiction on a path where he saw death looming in front of him. One constant for Chaske on his journey has been his traditional beliefs, which helped him find his center through the harrowing time he spent in jail in New York, and the fame he garnered as Sam Uley on the set of Twilight.

Chaske took some time to discuss his journey with Racebending.com, including the whirlwind of being a part of Twilight, his experience as a Native American actor, and what his current projects are.

CHASKE SPENCER: I just finished a movie called Shouting Secrets. I’m pretty proud of that one. We did it in Globe, Arizona and I really liked the story. I found out that the script is also written by Steven Judd, who’s a Native American screenwriter and very talented.

It was first written for a Dutch family, and they were trying to get it financed, and for some reason they switched over to a Native American family. I did not know that when I first read it, so it doesn’t really read as a Native American movie. It is like a family movie and the people just happen to be Native American–it was a different twist on things. It was totally a movie written for a Dutch family and you know it just interested me, I really like the character I play.

Chaske Spencer in Shouting Secrets

I finished that project and I’m gearing up to do Breaking Dawn in November. I think we’re shooting through March. After that I’m gearing up doing Winter in the Blood, the James Welch novel, with Andrew and Alex Smith, the guys who did The Slaughter Rule.

RACEBENDING.COM: Sounds like a lot on your plate this year.

CHASKE SPENCER: Yeah, (laughter) yeah and then my production company gets started on The Block after that. I guess I do four movies back to back, to back, to back.

RACEBENDING.COM: Can you tell us more about your production company and it’s new project The Block?

CHASKE SPENCER: The Block is about a writer who has a block, and the only way he can cure the circumstances he’s in is by killing people. He finds that the more people he kills, the more he has to write about, and it becomes an addiction. It’s very dark and it’s not like any character I’ve ever played. I really like the script. Ted Kurdyla, one of my production partners brought the script to me. He had done Tigerland, Phone Booth, Once Upon A Time in America so he’ s a pretty heavy hitter. We had a few meetings, ate dinner and lunch together, and I guess he was really feeling me out and fortunately we hit it off and he brought me the part.

The thing that I’m really excited about for it is that it’s my first production for my production company, Urban Dream. So a first for Josselyne [Herman], Ted, and me working together.

RACEBENDING.COM: Do you feel your projects, especially the success of the Twilight franchise, are opening eyes in Hollywood? Or at least convincing them to make more contemporary roles available for Native actors?

CHASKE SPENCER: Well, yes, and no.

Hollywood has a very short memory. I still have to struggle. I’m still getting roles geared towards Native Americans, but they’re not great scripts so I have to navigate and find out what I really want to do. I have to see if the character is right, and the story is right, because I want to keep challenging myself as an artist.

I have to be picky and it’s hard to find good roles and good scripts. I think that’s why there’s a lot of crap being made out there in Hollywood but I think there are great stories and movies out there in the independent film world and I think that’s the way to go.

Plus, Twilight is so huge–I don’t know where I could go or a bigger movie I could be in. I like the fact that I can somewhat control my career and not always be a product of Hollywood, because it is a game as well as a business there.

Also, I want to make stories and movies not just for Natives. I don’t want this to be just “a Native American production company”– it’s not about that; it’s about finding talent and stories that appeal to me and hopefully help other artists as well.

“Hollywood has a very short memory. I still have to struggle. I’m still getting roles geared towards Native Americans, but they’re not great scripts so I have to navigate and find out what I really want to do.”

RACEBENDING.COM: You have worked with some very influential directors, people like Chris Eyre and Steven Spielberg. Did you take away anything from working with them and do you see yourself working behind the camera now with your own production company?

CHASKE SPENCER: Yeah, I do. I do see myself doing that at some point. I really pay attention when I’m on set with the directors. I just watch how they maneuver and how they take the shots and how they direct actors, as well.

Some directors aren’t “actor directors.” They don’t know how to talk to actors. Which, I understand. I think it’s up to the actor to come in ready for their job, and that’s what they hired you to do, to bring something to the table.

It’s really easy to work with directors who were actors because they know how to talk to you and what they want from you. So being an actor, if I ever go into directing, I think I’d bring a lot to the table. It’s something I really want to do. It would have to be the right story– something that really appeals to me–maybe an actor’s or writer’s voice needing to be heard.

RACEBENDING.COM: In previous interviews you’ve talked about the fact that statistically, you shouldn’t be “here.” Can you elaborate for those unfamiliar with life on a reservations what those statistics are, and what you meant by that?

CHASKE SPENCER: Coming from a reservation, the chances of people getting out and becoming successful are pretty rare. The people who do, it’s almost like jumping off a waterfall: you just jump and see if you land, and we will see if you’re okay, but at least you made the jump.

When I talk about giving back to the community, I think it’s a responsibility for myself to do that. I’ve experienced a lot, living on reservation. There is poverty and abuse–physical, domestic and sexual. A lot of people don’t know that.

It’s not just to raise an awareness, but also I can’t do it alone–some actor getting on a stage as a PSA. The people in the family structure, in their own homes, have to take up for themselves, take responsibility. I could just be a broken record playing over and over again.

I had people like that come to my school when I was growing up, and it did have an influence on me, but it’s really up to the people themselves to do something about it. There is only so much someone can do to raise awareness, but if I can inspire someone to do that–to maybe make a change in their life–then I think I’ve done my job. But it’s not easy.

Being in the spotlight as a Native American actor, you’re already being put on a pedestal as being a role model, which I don’t think anyone really ever wants. You’re thrust on there anyway, so you might as well make do with it what you can. But I’m not a perfect angel.

I think there is a responsibility to raise awareness or help my community out in the best way I know how. It’s not just about Native Americans, either. I experienced poverty on both sides.

I used to live in a place called Kooskia, Idaho which is on the Nez Perce reservation, but is mainly a white community. I had friends who didn’t have the help from the government with dental or commodities. I experienced very loving, giving people, who were white, who were poorer than Indians–people who didn’t even have shoes or help with medical and dental insurance from the government.

RACEBENDING.COM: What role do you have, to bring media representation to issues of poverty? Do you think there is a hesitancy to talk about issues of poverty in general, as well as with Native peoples?

CHASKE SPENCER: To shift the power to the people, that it’s up to them. We can only do so much. So many systems focus on being a band aid and hoping it goes away, but you really need a shift.

It’s about looking yourself in the mirror and saying did you do the right thing today. It is a big path to ask, but it’s all about baby steps. If you start out with those, you can get to your destination your goal and help people.

It isn’t easy–if it was, everyone would be doing it–but I’m glad I have the media spotlight to do this. I couldn’t look at myself if I had these two number one box office movies, and I was riding around in limos and all that. If I didn’t do anything to give back, I would just be a douchebag!

RACEBENDING.COM: Is part of that philosophy coming from your parents, who were educators?

CHASKE SPENCER:Yeah. My mother and father were teachers. They’ve gone off reservation, but came back to teach at tribal schools. My dad was a superintendent and a dean of students at a college. My mom was a principal and vice principal and now teaches at an alternative school for kids who need alternative means for learning.

It all started with my parents having a good home life, as much as is possible. Again, I’m no perfect angel–it wasn’t like Beaver Cleaver–but it was enough to get me to where I needed to go.

RACEBENDING.COM: I’m curious, did your parents, being educators, talk about Indian Boarding Schools? Was that something that drove them to say, maybe make a positive change to address some of those issues, to do good in the community?

CHASKE SPENCER: I remember hearing stories from my mother and father about their parents and grandparents when they were taken of the reservation, taken to the boarding schools, and pretty much taught to be ashamed of who they were as Native Americans. You can feel that impact today.

I think that’s why there is so much alcohol and drug abuse on reservations, because the self-esteem of those people–they were robbed of the self-esteem for who they are. Our people were a beautiful people, and they still are.

The impact of that has affected generations. You had abuse, sexual abuse, at these boarding schools, plus, they were forced to cut their own hair–to be ashamed of who they were. If they spoke their own tongue, their mouths were washed out with soap. You can feel that effect today.

Girls at an Indian Boarding School. Source:University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign -An Indian Boarding School Photo Gallery

“They were robbed of the self-esteem for who they are. Our people were a beautiful people, and they still are.”

It’s very sad but it’s an awareness; I think our people do know, but some are ashamed to talk about it. If you start talking about it, you realize that’s a key point in our history, where we turned, where something happened. I believe it’s coming back with the Sundances, the Sweat Lodges and Native American spirituality coming back. We were just granted our rights here in the 1970s.

RACEBENDING.COM: Do you think that media representation plays a role in this, because there is a lack of positive portrayals in the media? So many overtly racist practices were allowed to continue well after segregation and other practices had stopped.

CHASKE SPENCER: Yeah. I went to all white school where I dealt with racism. There was a point–when I was a kid–where I said I wanted to be like Luke Skywalker, with blond hair and blue eyes. My mom right there told me to never be ashamed of who I am.

It was just conditioning. You see it everywhere in Hollywood–you know, in the media in general–it’s conditioning, conditioning everywhere you look. It took somewhere into my teens for me to really understand who I was and to start being proud of who I was.

“There was a point–when I was a kid–where I said I wanted to be like Luke Skywalker, with blond hair and blue eyes. My mom right there told me to never be ashamed of who I am.”

I can’t imagine what its like for people who grew up in the time of the boarding schools where there was a lot of racism towards people of color and minorities in general. I’m fortunate to have friends of all races and orientations. I live in New York City, so the people I hang with come from all different walks of life. I’m able to maneuver that way and have lots of different types of friends.

The big picture is acceptance, but I think we’re a long way from that. If you make an awareness of that, and acknowledge it, then maybe that’s a first step.

“As a Native American actor and role model, it can be tough because there have not been positive role models out there.”

As a Native American actor and role model, it can be tough because there have not been positive role models out there. There have been some, but it’s Hollywood, and there is propaganda and bull that goes on sometimes, and it can be difficult maneuvering through that type of life here.

RACEBENDING.COM: What role have your traditional beliefs played in your life and in relation to your own personal struggles?

CHASKE SPENCER: It’s helped me stay very grounded. It keeps me in reality, because I know the films I make, it’s all very lucky. Not a lot of people get to do what they love for a living and I’m a very lucky person to get to do what I’m doing.

My traditional beliefs are what I do to stay centered, to stay grounded in my tradition. I’m glad that I’m at a place now in my life where I can acknowledge that, and know I rely on that a lot today. Especially, with all the success and everything because it lets me realize what’s important in life. It’s just a movie and a fad that will go away at some point.

I’ve been making movies for twelve years now and I’ve had ups and downs in my career. There are ups and downs, mountains and valleys. It’s up right now, but it’ll be down again ,and then it’ll get up again–that’s just show business.

RACEBENDING.COM: Much of your fan base are teenagers, and one of the issues you’ve talked about in the past is the dramatic increase in teenage suicides. Is this an area you hope to have an impact in for Native American youth and for youth in general?

CHASKE SPENCER: I hope so. It’s gotten worse. When I was a kid it wasn’t that bad, or at least I was sheltered from it. But lately the suicide rate is so high.

I understand being on reservation–especially the ones I grew up, on Fort Peck and Northern Cheyenne–there is nothing to do, there nothing going on for the youth. There are lot of drugs–a lot of crystal meth, a lot of peer pressure–all that stuff. I just don’t think in high school, kids understand.

I remember being a kid, you think: That’s it. That’s life, the end all be all. But sometimes, on a reservation, that is all. I think it’s up to the teachers, the parents, the real educators to give them another outlook on life, to say: “This is not the end. You can get off the reservation. You can go and do something with your life. When you die, that’s it. There is no coming back. And you forget about the people who love you and care for you.”

“This is not the end. You can get off the reservation. You can go and do something with your life. When you die, that’s it. There is no coming back. And you forget about the people who love you and care for you.”

RACEBENDING.COM: What is it that helped bring you out of your own personal struggles with addiction and what would you say to those who are struggling with those issues now?

CHASKE SPENCER: What helped me? There were several things that helped me sober up.

When I came to New York, I always had a mentality of “work hard; play hard.” My work never really suffered from my drug and alcohol usage, but it could have. I always walked that fine line, where I could go either way.

As I got deeper into addiction, I started noticing that work was suffering. Relationships were falling apart and I found myself more and more alone. I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. I hated waking up needing something in my system just to get up and face the day.

Everyone has there own journey in how they sober up but for me it was: I could keep going down this road, but I could see that death was going to happen. I understood what they meant when they talk about death, institutions, and jail and I’d already been to jail. I could just see death looming somewhere around there because of the poor decisions I was making under the influence.

It wasn’t like a big dramatic thing. Just one night, something clicked. I’d had enough. I was done, and I couldn’t do this anymore–and I can’t quit on my own. I’ve gotten so deep into it, and trying to stop on my own is useless…so I asked for help and I received help.

The thing is, when I go back to my home reservation…I don’t think I could have sobered up on reservation. I can see where it’s hard for someone to stay sober on reservation, especially the ones I grew up on. If I had to go back and live there, I don’t know if I would be able to stay sober in those situations, its just too big and there is nothing there to help people with drug addictions. There are facilities and stuff there but the moral support you need from family and friends is not there because everyone is doing it.

Alex Meraz, Kiowa Gordon, and Chaske Spencer in Twilight: New Moon

RACEBENDING.COM: Once again thank you for your time. It sounds like having that family foundation is very important to you and I appreciate you sharing your personal experiences with us today. I’m curious, does any of this come out in your acting? Even in Twilight or other roles, is there anything that relates back to these personal experiences?

CHASKE SPENCER: No, not in Twilight! (laughter)

RACEBENDING.COM: That’s more of a battle of “Shirt, versus no shirt?” than “Good versus Evil,” isn’t it?

CHASKE SPENCER: (laughter) Yeah, the only thing I’m going through with pain right now is physical. It’s training for Breaking Dawn. In fact I just started going back to the gym. I’m going to the gym tomorrow and I know I’m going to be so sore tomorrow!

The movie I really liked the most, of all the films I’ve done, is probably Skins. I really liked that movie, and I liked the actors who are in it, and I like the story because I think it captures life on a reservation really well. I think it’s something people who lived on a reservation can really relate to.

Chaske Spencer in Skins

I’m also not in it all that much–which I like–but I get really caught up with Graham Greene and Eric Schwieg, who are really powerful actors. I really tip my hat to those two actors, because working with them and being around them, being a young man learning to act, and in seeing the final product, I could see the intensity in how they work their craft.

Racebending.com would like to thank Mr. Chaske Spencer and Gabriel Canada for this interview!

Tantoo Cardinal is a Canadian Métis film and television actress. She is one of the most recognizable Native American actresses in the world, and has appeared in over 50 films, including Dances With Wolves and Smoke Signals.

Métis are Canadians of mixed Native American and European descent; Cardinal can trace her heritage back to Cree, Chipweyan, Lakota culture. In 1971, She discovered acting through her activism work; she’s been both an advocate and actress ever since.

Tantoo Cardinal, Courtesy of Indiana University.

On December 30th, 2009, Cardinal was made a Member of the Order of Canada “for her contributions to the growth and development of Aboriginal performing arts in Canada, as a screen and stage actress, and as a founding member of the Saskatchewan Native Theatre Company.”

Racebending.com contributor Gabriel Canada interviewed Tantoo Cardinal over the phone in July 2010.

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

RACEBENDING.COM: You’ve said in the past, that you first started acting as an extension of your involvement in the political movement’s of the 1960′s. You have said you wanted to change the way our [Native American] history was told. Can you elaborate on this for our readers?

TANTOO CARDINAL: I came through a time when our history was not handled justly in the recording of events. It was just coming to terms with how we were being portrayed, how we were being treated. This was a time when the only real avenues of expression were political. This was before any art involvement. I always felt we were being maligned, and if only people could see how we are in the community–with our songs and dance, our stories, the way people express themselves–then they could know who we are.

RACEBENDING.COM: When you were starting out as an actress, the Canadian Content Policy was also coming in at the time. It has been singled out as having a huge impact on Native actors. What was it? How did it affect you?

TANTOO CARDINAL: It created a mandate for Canadian content in cinema. It made Canadian film makers who did Canadian stories use Canadian actors and provided funding for filmmakers to make these movies. In that same germ of thought there was an issue of personal pride–that maybe we should have Native peoples playing Native roles. It was kind of a pushback since America was really taking over much of our culture in Canada.

RACEBENDING.COM: Were there any actors or actresses you admired growing up, or that informed your portrayals throughout your career?

TANTOO CARDINAL: No. Certainly not actresses. There were no Indian women I could look at on screen. I guess my inspiration would be, you know when you see stellar actors like Audrey Hepburn playing an Indian woman. I felt I might not know about acting but hey, I know about being an Indian Woman. I’m an Indian!

RACEBENDING.COM: In watching your films again before this interview, one was very striking–Black Robe–having been widely criticized for its violent depictions of Native peoples.

TANTOO CARDINAL: Well, Black Robe was based on Church records. Our side of the story was not told, it was the Church’s perspective. Hopefully, there will be an opportunity to show our perspective, in our time in history.

RACEBENDING.COM: It was also a very three dimensional film. There was a mix of humor and sexuality that isn’t often found in Hollywood depictions of First Nation peoples. What do you think it will take to get more three dimensional roles like that for First Nations actors?

TANTOO CARDINAL: If we had the cash Black Robe had, with the filmmakers that have incubated and come out in these last few years, we could make a pretty dazzling movie that would tell our story.

RACEBENDING.COM: Speaking of big-budget depictions of First Nation peoples, there have been several high-profile examples, in recent years, of Hollywood “racebending” Native Peoples– by taking native characters from source material but casting white actors in their place. Most notably, this happened in The Last Airbender. What do you think it would take for Hollywood to give that same big budget to Native American film makers and actors?

TANTOO CARDINAL: It would take the world turning upside down.

RACEBENDING.COM: Was it the same for you starting out in the industry?

TANTOO CARDINAL: Racism and sexism have not been eradicated. When I started out, I was sitting in audition halls with white girls with all this brown makeup on and cheap turquoise jewelry. Somehow I made it in, thanks to a want for authenticity. Those struggles still persist, you know.

“Racism and sexism have not been eradicated. When I started out, I was sitting in audition halls with white girls with all this brown makeup on and cheap turquoise jewelry. Somehow I made it in, thanks to a want for authenticity.”

Someone asked me in my forties about being in my forties and how I felt with roles not available to women in their forties. Well, that’s the story of my career. Starting out, you see roles aren’t available. And then, all along the way, roles aren’t available. So it’s not a new element. It’s very frustrating for me to even watch movies because of that. There are many roles I feel I could have performed.

In America, however, they still see us [Native Americans] as dead. I don’t know what it’s going to take, but there is a serious denial element in American society. They don’t want to look at their potty training days. They tried to annihilate us. They destroyed our economic base at every opportunity, so I just sit back and watch now.

There has to be a major shakeup for us to be treated as equal human beings. Our stories, our characters, our being, has to be accepted as equal humanity to those who have the purse strings. Thank goodness we have allies, thanks goodness we have human beings who believe we’re human beings now.

There has to be a major shakeup for us to be treated as equal human beings. Our stories, our characters, our being, has to be accepted as equal humanity to those who have the purse strings.”

They don’t have any confidence they can make the money back with us. They just seem uninterested. I don’t know whether it’s guilt, or people thinking it’s just yesterday, I don’t know what the elements are. You’d have to talk to people who don’t consider us interesting or valuable.

There is also a situation where an adept filmmaker isn’t trusted with the budget unless a white filmmaker is alongside. I’d say that scenario was prevalent about fifteen years ago. It’s just a persistence among our artists that’s needed. You have to make it with peanuts and pop bottle budgets.

RACEBENDING.COM: There have been more than four thousand movies, over the course of the history of film, that feature First Nation peoples. With all of that out there, and the success of so many of those films–including your own that feature First Nation people so prominently–why do you think that fear of financial viability still exists?

TANTOO CARDINAL: I think It’s racism. You know, I played a lead in an independent film in Vermont. We had the hardest time just getting it in to screen at Sundance.

RACEBENDING.COM: It really is an incredible situation considering the films you have been in. They haven’t just had an impact on Native cinema, but on cinema as a whole. Black Robe won best Canadian film of the year, Dances with Wolves was nominated for seven Oscars, Legends of the Fall won for best cinematography and you still have to fight to get into Sundance. Just a few years later your film Smoke Signals would win the Audience Prize and Film Makers prize at the same festival. It’s an incredible success for these films, but that success hasn’t translated to wins for Native Actors themselves. Why is that?

TANTOO CARDINAL: Can you imagine, if we had all been white actors? What that would have done for our careers? You talk about a glass ceiling. We have a moon high ceiling. More than just a hundred years of cinema history, it’s four centuries of history. It has more to do with the respect of society as a whole.

You talk about a glass ceiling. We have a moon high ceiling. More than just a hundred years of cinema history, it’s four centuries of history.

RACEBENDING.COM: It seems to be something you’ve tackled in your films as well: respect of Native culture in society. You specifically tackled the topic of Indian Boarding schools in your films Older Than Americaand The Education of Little Tree. How important is it to address these issues in film and television? Do you think that the lack of positive portrayals of Native peoples in media contributed to that practice continuing as long as it did?

TANTOO CARDINAL: It’s essential that we continue to tell our stories. It’s not enough for us to be the backdrop. We can’t be there just to tell white stories. It’s important for the whole health of us as a people.

“It’s essential that we continue to tell our stories. It’s not enough for us to be the backdrop.”

The U.S. and Canadian Constitutions were inspired by the Iroquois Confederacy. Two elements weren’t adopted: that the women chose who the leaders are, and that they can decide when the leadership isn’t doing what it’s supposed to do. Society is supposed to be governed with women and children in mind. There has to be more respect for women and children in the overall society. Even today, we have to fight to be accepted as equals.

Another tragedy of those boarding schools is trying to sever our relationship with what they call God. For years, children were being told that their ways were “of the devil.” It put a lot of fear into people and now a lot of the healing has to take place, by praying in the Indian way, getting in touch with the Creator. I think that all cultures are the same they all have this connection far back in history.

RACEBENDING.COM:You’ve brought issues of women and children to many of your films. It seems to have been a very important part of your career. You even portrayed a victim of sexual abuse in Silent Tongue. Was it something you’ve actively sought out, or are these the type of scripts that come to you?

TANTOO CARDINAL: Well, they do come to me, but it’s both. It’s something I’m very concerned–about both the environment, and violence against women. Some of it you don’t get an opportunity to see. For instance a great movie was Loyalties; I made it in Canada about 25 years ago, about domestic violence.

For me, what I like to see in my work is that it gets people thinking, or that it ignites some kind of passion one way or another. That is the only way we will ever see change happen, is people waking up and really wanting to get to the bottom of things.

I brought up the point about the Constitutions, because I feel we are an important enzyme in society. Society can’t function healthily if women and children aren’t being treated healthily.

“Society can’t function healthily if women and children aren’t being treated healthily.”

RACEBENDING.COM: You have a very diverse career. It’s a drastic shift from Where the River Flows North to Older than America or Black Robe. Whether its horror or comedy or a children’s film, how do you deal as an actor with all these different approaches to film making?

TANTOO CARDINAL:Well, the only thing I can do really is try to be as truthful as I can. As an actor you don’t have all that much power, you only have that moment and the little space your given. You have to trust creative forces.

If I keep looking to the great big picture and my contribution, it’s very depressing. My ability to influence is very limited as an actor because I don’t have those other skills–I am no director or writer. I value with my life the people who really do want to do proper portrayals. In doing proper portrayals, it’s where you get to the issues. Art is supposed to make you want to think and discuss. I have to be satisfied with doing that.

“I value with my life the people who really do want to do proper portrayals.”

RACEBENDING.COM: In closing what advice would you give to a young actor starting out today?

TANTOO CARDINAL: Trust your intuition!

Racebending.com would like to thank Ms. Tantoo Cardinal and Gabriel Canada for this interview!

Tom Huang is an Asian American director, writer, and actor. Why Am I Doing This? is his second independent feature film. It chronicles the lives of two performers of color as they struggle to break into the industry. Tony (Tom Huang) and Lester (Anthony Montgomery) must grapple with industry stereotypes, family drama, girlfriend issues, and the crap jobs aspiring actors have to take on the side in order to cover rent.

As an independent movie, Why Am I Doing This? offers an bitingly funny and honest look at the entertainment industry and what it’s like to live in Los Angeles, one of the most diverse cities in the world. Why Am I Doing This? was released on DVD on July 13th, 2010.

Racebending.com co-founder Marissa Lee attended a screening of Why Am I Doing This? in Beverly Hills and followed up with director, writer, and actor Tom Huang via email.

RACEBENDING.COM: Tell us a bit about who you are and what you do!

TOM HUANG: Well, I’m Tom Huang, indie filmmaker (cue: hero trumpet blare). I work on writing, producing, and editing my own indie film projects (that’s the indie filmmaker part of me) as well as doing various jobs in Hollywood as a producer, editor, director and writer to pay the bills. I wrote for network TV for a few seasons before making Why Am I Doing This?, which is my second feature.

RACEBENDING.COM:What inspired you to make Why Am I Doing This?l

TOM HUANG: After my first indie feature, freshmen, I started working in TV, and eventually was lucky enough to get a few jobs writing for network TV sitcoms. Getting a TV writing gig was great, but it’s still very much about sticking to formulaic stories and characters (most of which are, of course, Caucasian). I still very much wanted to make my own films, so in my off-time from writing for the shows I decided to start writing a feature that I could shoot as my second feature.

I always feel like the most real writing comes from personal experience, so I decided to write about something I’m very familiar with: failing in Hollywood… but from a more diverse perspective. I also wanted to do something different than what I had to do for TV, something that dealt with multi-ethnic relationships and families, and with living in a multi-cultural stew like Los Angeles. So that become the foundation for what I wanted to start with…

“I always feel like the most real writing comes from personal experience, so I decided to write about something I’m very familiar with: failing in Hollywood… but from a more diverse perspective. “

I then just let the characters guide me through their stories as I wrote the film. I wanted to write something funny, but also real, so I tried making as real characters as possible and allow the humor to just come from their struggles in life, as well as trying to say something about chasing your dream job, family, and understanding what’s important to you. After the Hollywood writer’s strike, I couldn’t find a TV writing job, so I decided it was good time to try to put the film together, and things just worked out so that I could do it.

RACEBENDING.COM: Your film is set and filmed in Los Angeles and reflects the true diversity of the city. Was this something you tried to be conscious of during the writing and casting process?

TOM HUANG: I absolutely was trying to reflect the diversity of the city and how it affects your relationships in life. There’s actually a scene that I had to cut–it’s in the DVD extras–that addresses this very thought… Tony argues that even though Los Angeles is diverse, everyone still sticks with their own kind: there’s the “Korean” part of town, the “Chinese” part of town, the “kinda weird Orthodox Jewish” part of town, etc. Lester finds this pessimistic, but I always think it’s an interesting argument.

Koreatown, Los Angeles

In both of my feature films, I really made an effort to make the film as diverse as possible that still felt real to me, because that’s the kind of world I live in, and because that’s partially why I got into filmmaking in the first place.

Thus, I don’t really explain it in the film, but you see some uniquely Los Angeles ethnic hang-outs, like karaoke in Koreatown, or street racing lowered Civics on the outskirts of L.A., etc. Places like these really show how the mix of cultures have manifested itself; Koreans gathering to sing American pop songs in English, Asian-American hip-hop kids gathering to listen to rap and embrace African-American culture, but never hang out with an actual African-American. It’s a great background that you never get to see in Hollywood.

I actually started out wanting to be an actor while at UCLA, but going through the audition process in the theater department, even at UCLA, I couldn’t find any parts for me, especially parts where I can just play an interesting character who happened to be Asian. It was then I realized if I wanted to do anything interesting, I’d have to write it myself, so I turned around and became a Creative Writing major.

“I actually started out wanting to be an actor…I couldn’t find any parts for me, especially parts where I can just play an interesting character who happened to be Asian. I realized if I wanted to do anything interesting, I’d have to write it myself…”

RACEBENDING.COM: Were the character’s cultural backgrounds factored into the story, or were these elements added in after casting, or both?

TOM HUANG: With “Why Am I Doing This?” the diverse characters started straight from the beginning.I imagined these characters as Chinese-American, African-American, East Indian-American, Latino-American, etc., from the start and wrote their stories with that in mind.

Anthony Montgomery plays Lester– parking meter cop by day, stand up comedian by night.

RACEBENDING.COM: The two main characters in the movie, Asian American actor Tony and African American comedian Lester, both do not seem to fit Hollywood’s preconcieved notions of who they are based on their respective ethnicities. Would you say that this kind of type-casting is common in Hollywood?

TOM HUANG: I’d say, yes, type-casting like this is still pretty common; you can see it in roles on TV and in film. (Like, what is up with those metro PCS commercials with the wacky Indian guys? Holy crap.)

But it’s getting a little better as we kind of evolve as a more diverse society in America, and as we get more diverse people behind the camera as writers and executives.

Having written for network TV, I think there is definitely a conscious effort to diversify guest roles and supporting cast, but when it comes to casting main roles, it’s still very much a white world. And more specifically, it’s even tougher to find an Asian-American cast in a main role where they aren’t speaking with some sort of accent.

“I think there is definitely a conscious effort to diversify guest roles and supporting cast, but when it comes to casting main roles, it’s still very much a white world.”

I think there are actually a number of roles that producers bring in different ethnicities to audition for the main parts, but it almost always ends up just getting cast as Caucasian.

I think African-Americans have it a little better as far as number of parts as studios recognize they have to service a huge audience, but there still is an expectation that an African-American character has to talk “Black” and is some sort of wise-cracking, tell-it-as-it-is kind of person, as seen with the recurrent female “Black Best Friend” character we see so much.

RACEBENDING.COM: Are actors encouraged to act more “ethnic” to get jobs?

TOM HUANG: I don’t know if most people are encouraged to act more “ethnic” to get jobs… the amount of ethnicity is kind of written in the part from the beginning, so it’s more a problem of trying to get people to write interesting characters, who just happen to be of color, from the start.

“It’s more a problem of trying to get people to write interesting characters, who just happen to be of color, from the start..”

It does happen, though… A pretty big Asian-American actor friend of mine went to an audition for a network TV pilot and told the producers specifically, “Hey, if you want me to do the wacky accent thing, I don’t want to audition.” They told him, no no, that’s fine. So he auditioned, and got the part as one of the main roles.

During the first rehearsal, they came back to him and said, “uh… You think you can do the accent thing? We think it’d be funnier.” So he left the show. I don’t know if I’d have the balls to do that.

RACEBENDING.COM:In the first scene of the movie, a studio exec asks Tony to use an Asian accent during his audition. Is this scene based on a true incident?

TOM HUANG: The scene is actually based on a number of stories I’ve heard from my Asian-American acting friends, where they’re asked to do a part in an “Asian” or “Oriental” accent, and when the actor asks “What kind of Asian accent?” they just get blank looks.

RACEBENDING.COM:What sort of standard–in terms of acting roles–does this set for Asian American actors in Hollywood?

TOM HUANG: I don’t know if this necessarily sets a standard, but yes, I do feel that it seems like when a role is written specifically for an Asian in Hollywood, they usually have some sort of foreign slant–if you can excuse the term–to it, where the role is for an Asian foreigner or an Asian-American who is there because he/she speaks Korean or whatever.

LOST‘s Korean characters, Sun and Jin (played by Yunjin Kim and Daniel Dae Kim)

Of course, it’s not always a bad thing… In the show “Lost” the Korean couple, Jin and Sun, are wonderfully constructed characters with depth and life. For me, it’s just that there aren’t enough interesting roles where I can see someone like me, a normal American guy, who happens to be Asian–like the role of Miles on “Lost.”

In contrast, Ken Leung plays Miles Straume, a sardonic Asian American, on LOST.

And as Clyde Kusatsu says in the film, it’s kind of just the reality of the situation right now… Studios look at the demographics, and at last count, Asian Americans only account for 6% of the population, so they’d rather play the numbers and go with the majority on the screen.

RACEBENDING.COM: The movie takes some pot shots at how the biz works and how it treats actors of color. Was it risky for you, as an independent filmmaker, to call out some of these practices?

TOM HUANG: Actually, it’s because I’m an independent filmmaker that it’s not as risky to take pot shots at the business.

For the most part, when you get lots of money to make a big film or TV show, it also comes with the restrictions of having to work with people paying for you and your production, which is often a big studio or network. Since they’re looking so desperately to get a return, they don’t like taking risks, so they go with the ‘safe’ route that’s made money before and appeals to the biggest; thus you get formulaic films, non-diverse casting and stories about the majority race in America.

The single biggest thing you get as an indie filmmaker–since you don’t get any money–is creative control, so you get a chance to make something that you want to see–in my case, a multi-cultural cast and story. Unfortunately, I think the only place at the moment to see multi-ethnic stories is in independent film, because it’s only place it can be made.

“Unfortunately, I think the only place at the moment to see multi-ethnic stories is in independent film, because it’s only place it can be made.”

I don’t think anyone in Hollywood really cares I’m taking shots at how they do business… They’ve heard all before and are still making money, not to mention my film is pretty small. I do hope that someone at a studio or network will look at the film and see how my very talented actors can play normal American roles–while bringing something new to the table in a positive way–and then consider them for roles that may have been originally written for someone white.

” I do hope that someone at a studio or network will look at the film and see how my very talented actors can play normal American roles–while bringing something new to the table in a positive way–and then consider them for roles that may have been originally written for someone white.”

RACEBENDING.COM: In the movie, Tony discovers a mentor in older Asian American actor Clyde Kusatsu (playing himself!) and performs in an all-Asian production of Death of a Salesman–a role he would likely not have access to, as an actor of color, outside of Asian American theater. In real life, what sort of resources are there for Asian Americans who aspire to get into film?

TOM HUANG: There are lots of resources for Asian-Americans to get into film, whether it be film school, or various diversity training programs put on by the studios and networks, to all-Asian theater troupes like East-West Players or OPM, to groups that put on the various Asian-American film festivals like Center for Asian-American Media in San Francisco, or the Coalition of Asian-Pacifics in Entertainment (CAPE), just to name a few.

RACEBENDING.COM: Is there a large support system out there?

TOM HUANG: The support is definitely there, not to mention the support of the Asian-American Hollywood community in general. For my film, I was overwhelmed and cheered by the response of the Asian-American actors who were more than happy to be in my film, no matter how big the part and how little they got paid, because they wanted to support a fellow Asian-American artist. I know many of the Asian-American actors, filmmakers, and execs around town because it is a small, tight-knit community.

Making it in Hollywood is pretty tough for anybody of any race, so it really is a matter of hanging in there long enough to get your break or your next job.

I believe that you can’t worry about the Asian-American part of being a performer or writer or director or whatever because you can’t really control that. What you can control is being the best actor, writer or director you can and let your talent and hard work eventually show people they should hire you.

It doesn’t always work out (I’m livin’ that, yo,) but in the end, I believe that’s what will get you in or give you a chance, because true talent will always get recognized. But man, it can be rough.

RACEBENDING.COM: In Why Am I Doing This, there is a commentary on popular Asian American actors. Every role for an Asian American guy in the biz, Tony laments, seems to either go to real-life Korean American actor John Cho, or to his nemesis, (the fictional) Tim Chung. Where did the idea for this joke come about?

TOM HUANG: Well, the joke actually comes a large part from the truth, in my mind. As I said, Hollywood is a business, and they want to make sure they sell tickets, so just by the numbers game, they prefer having recognizable faces on the screen. So who is the most recognizable male Asian-American actor who also happens to have talent? That’s right, that “Harold and Kumar American Pie” guy.

John Cho and Kal Penn, Hollywood’s go-to Asian American actors of the moment

RACEBENDING.COM: Why does Hollywood always seem to go for the same Asian actors?

TOM HUANG: That’s just how Hollywood works, regardless of the race… For a part for any studio film, who do they want? The most recognizable guy, or the guy that’s “hot” at the moment. It just so happens that there aren’t a whole lot of big Asian-American roles –Jackie Chan and Jet Li are getting all the karate ones– so the list isn’t that big of recognizable names that’s done a lot of stuff…

Right now, it’s John Cho and maybe now funny doctor guy Ken Jeong, or Kal Penn if you want to go Indian. Now there’s plenty of other great, talented Asian-American actors, but they just haven’t been lucky enough to get that big role that somehow puts them in the minds of the middle-American audience, so until they do… John Cho will still be on top of the studio list.

Dion Basco plays Danny, Tony’s brother and polar opposite.

RACEBENDING.COM: Dion Basco (brother of Dante Basco of Avatar: The Last Airbender) plays Tony’s brother and a Chinese American character, even though he is Filipino American. What are your thoughts on Asian Americans playing different ethnicities?

TOM HUANG: Although I kind of make light of it in the film, I think it’s fine, especially if it’s Asian-Americans playing Asian-Americans, since the American part of it is more the big part of the characters’ voice.

I generally can sort of tell different Asians apart, but there is plenty of overlap, as far as looks, with all Asians (or Indians and Pakistanis and such). I certainly have been mistaken for Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese, etc., by people of those backgrounds (that made for awkward conversation let me tell you).

I think it can get a little wacky when an Asian plays an Asian-Asian of different ethnicity with a completely different accent, like in the film version of Memoirs of a Geisha, where they had Chinese nationals, who spoke poor English, playing Japanese people, speaking English in some British-Japanese accent. Holy crap that was terrible.

RACEBENDING.COM: In advertisements like the movie poster, Amber (played by Emma Caulfield), is placed in the center and appears to be the central focus of the film. Yet, the main characters in the film are Tony and Lester. Why wasn’t more focus placed on Lester and Tony in advertisements?

TOM HUANG: For my distributor, it was more of a recognizable actor thing than an ethnic thing. When selling DVDs, for distributors and retailers, what sells the DVDs is the box cover, not the actual content of the movie…

My movie could be an hour and a half of me crapping on the toilet, but if there are recognizable, sellable faces on the cover (a genre like horror), then the DVD will sell.

Tony hangs out with the gregarious Amber (Emma Caulfield)

My distributor felt that Emma Caulfield (who was a series regular as “Anya” on the popular “Buffy the Vampire” TV series) was the most recognizable actor that had an audience they could sell to, so she went on the front of the cover.

I think if they had their druthers, they probably would have wanted to take me off the cover as well, since I don’t really have any ‘name’ value, but I think the bear suit I’m wearing saved me.

RACEBENDING.COM: Often stories told by people of color are considered ‘niche’ films that only succeed in specific cultural communities. What sorts of ways do you think the general audience might become more interested in hearing about real people’s stories, histories and Point of Views, even if they might not coincide with their own?

TOM HUANG:I think people are definitely interested in hearing about real people’s stories of any ethnicity as long as it’s interesting enough and done well… It’s just that studios aren’t willing to take the risk.

You look at Slumdog Millionaire, a movie about an Indian boy in India trying to win back his love, no studio would touch that with a 10-foot pole. So some people took a chance, made it independently, and Fox Searchlight recognized it was simply a great film and gambled it would do well because of that, and it was blockbuster. It also benefited from a planned, slow rollout where word of mouth helped get people into the theaters, and of course the Oscars helped as well.

There are plenty of other examples, such as the Joy Luck Club (a good example of actual Asian-American stories) and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, etc. People are wiling to watch it, I think, it’s just a matter of more studios wiling to release films based on quality rather than formulas, and also a matter of making sure films like that are made with low-budgets so it can turn a profit to help buy other films like it.

RACEBENDING.COM: What tangible things can fans and media consumers do to help push the entertainment industry into showing us a world or worlds where people of color exist?

TOM HUANG: It’s pretty simple… People just have to show support for those kinds of films and TV shows. They have to watch them on TV and buy their DVDs, that’s what speaks the industry, because, again, they are a business.

If you see a film or TV show you like, buy the DVD, or if you see a film that comes out that looks interesting with that kind of perspective, go see it… That’s the only thing that will truly speak to “the industry.”

And there has to be more support for independent films, as well. These are usually the only places where stories about people of color can be made, because they’re not constrained by having to cater to the masses. Indie filmmakers like me cannot survive very long making small films like that unless people buy the films or they get hired by a studio, it’s simply too hard to get by. So please, if you like what a filmmaker has done and want to see more, buy their product so they can continue to do just that.

“There has to be more support for independent films…These are usually the only places where stories about people of color can be made, because they’re not constrained by having to cater to the masses.”

And, of course, support awareness movements like this site…it’s only when studios see the great number of people that want to see more diverse casts and stories of different cultures that they’re willing to give something new a try. I think the publicity and awareness generated by this site and the people who read it was pretty tremendous.

In a scene from Why Am I Doing This? Tony (Tom Huang) meets a mysterious girl (Lynn Chen) while on the job as a birthday party Spider-man.

RACEBENDING.COM: In the film, the audience and Lester and Tony themselves come to learn exactly why they are “doing this”–throwing everything they have into breaking into the entertainment industry, while representing themselves in an honest way and without selling out. It’s hard, especially when there are so many barriers in Hollywood. So, Tom, why are you doing “this”?

TOM HUANG: First of all, making this film has been a complete pain-in-the-ass for everyone involved: my family and friends, the tireless cinematographer and crew, the actors, the producers, the people who let us use their bar, my next door neighbors who kind of reluctantly let me use their living room to shoot in… the list goes on. I’ve had to borrow money to make this film, I still have to work a day job to pay the bills, a lot of things I have to end up doing myself because all the skilled people who have been working for free or little money for me have to move on and actually do things that pay them. I literally am working probably 10-12 hours a day with all the stuff I have to do as well as my other projects I’m working on to pay the bills. So really, why am I doing this godforsaken movie that maybe nobody will see?

Well, quite simply, it’s because making movies is what I want to do in life, and I always feel that if you want to do something, you should do it (if you can). Yes, it’s been quite difficult getting it done, and it’s stressful to have this loan out I’m not sure how I’m going to pay back… but I’m also fortunate to know many talented people who can help me out, and I know I have the skills and resources to make a film that people can watch without thinking “am I watching a really long home movie?” So why not? I can.

“Because making movies is what I want to do in life, and I always feel that if you want to do something, you should do it.”

The other reason is that I feel I have something to say and can affect people in a positive way through my filmmaking, whether it be by laughter or tears, by creating a character people care about and learn from, or just creating a story than can inspire and make people think about their lives.

Finally, probably the main reason is that the filmmaking side of it is incredibly enjoyable and engaging for me. The other logistical stuff I’m dealing with now, i.e., doing contracts, getting rights, marketing, etc… Huge pain-in-the-ass. But it’s all for being able to do the other stuff. Working with actors and crew on a scene, sitting in a dark editing room cutting together scenes, sitting in a theater with an audience who’s never heard of the film before laugh their asses off or shed a little tear during the film, talking with someone who’s seen the film tell me it’s inspired them in some way… all that makes the pain-in-ass stuff more than worth it. That is, as long as I’m not pissing off my friends and family for too long that they don’t want to be around me anymore.

I always believe that you have to define yourself by what you do. If you claim to be a good person, you should be doing good things. If you say you want to get healthy, you should take actions to be healthy. And if you want to call yourself a filmmaker, you have to make films. And that’s why I have to do it. I just wish someone will let me make a living doing it sometime. Oh man, sometime soon, please…

Racebending.com would like to thank Mr. Tom Huang for this interview!

For more information on Why Am I Doing This? visit the website! www.whyamidoingthis.net
The DVD is available on Amazon.com: Why Am I Doing This, Walmart.com, and Target.com.

Tim Dang is the producing artistic director of East West Players, an Asian American theater organization based in Los Angeles, CA. He also guest starred in Season 3 of Avatar: The Last Airbender, playing Yon Rha, the Fire Nation soldier who killed Katara and Sokka’s mother, in the episode The Southern Raiders.

Racebending.com had the opportunity to interview Dang about his work with East West Players, Avatar: The Last Airbender, the 1990 Miss Saigon protests, and Asian American acting now and in the future.

The nation’s premier Asian American theater organization, East West Players was co-founded in 1965 by seven Asian American actors, including two actors who would eventually work on Avatar: The Last Airbender— late actor Mako Iwamatsu (Uncle Iroh) and James Hong (Mayor Tong). Several EWP alumni like Dante Basco (Prince Zuko), George Takei, and Daniel Dae Kim also voiced characters in Avatar: The Last Airbender.

A writer, actor, and director, Tim Dang has been with East West Players since 1980 and has served as the Players’ artistic director since 1993.

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

RACEBENDING.COM Please tell us about East West Players and the work that they do.

TIM DANG: East West Players has been giving opportunities to Asian American artists both on-stage and behind the scenes since our founding in 1965. We provide access to an entertainment medium that has not fairly and accurately represented the Asian American experience on stage, on film and TV. With the world becoming more and more global, our work raising the visibility of the Asian Pacific artists and the Asian Pacific experience has seen a growth on the American landscape. But there is still a lot of work to be done.

RACEBENDING.COM: How has your work with East West Players affected your perception of Asian American strides in performing, creating, and promoting television, film, and other visual arts?

TIM DANG: We are proud to say that over 3,000 Asian American artists have come through our doors since our founding in 1965. Chances are, if you see an Asian American on film or TV and definitely on the stage, that performer has had some relationship with East West Players.

I would estimate about 75% of [Asian American] actors have come through our doors. But with more Asian Pacifics going into the industry through many streams of training, we welcome the expanding group of Asian Pacific artists coming to Hollywood, New York and other culturally rich environments.

RACEBENDING.COM: What are your hopes for the future of Asian Americans in Hollywood and the entertainment industry at large? What should artists do?

TIM DANG: It is great to see much more opportunity for Asian Pacific artists in Hollywood. It is better to see more Asian Pacific writers, directors, producers being more creatively involved. They have the ability to hire more Asian Americans. Especially when there are Asian American producers, they can create more works about the Asian Pacific experience or a more diverse experience.

Like all artists, the Asian American artist has to be prepared when their time comes and when opportunity knocks. They need to train extensively in their craft – continuously, they need to know the business of acting and they need to be involved/knowledgeable in everything. They need to do their homework.

This could mean learning an authentic accent–even British or Australian since there are many Asians who live there–physical skills–horseback riding, riding a bicycle, playing football and even martial arts–as well as cultural, behavioral skills. It’s important to be exposed to all of these things.

RACEBENDING.COM What should advocacy groups do? What can consumers do to help achieve this ideal vision?

TIM DANG: This is an unofficial way of thinking, but I believe that through social media, we can organize quicker and we can advocate as a group with a click of an email. We can let studios or producers know how we feel about something.

But we should also be smart with what platform you will focus on and what you are willing to let go of. The world is full of compromises and there is a balance that is maintained.

Only time will help aid the evolution of the process. Things don’t happen fast enough but they will happen. It is the groundwork that is laid down now that will have its effect years from now.

Imagine if the work that EWP has been doing the past 44 years had never been done? The path would be a lot more challenging. And because of the advocacy done on The Last Airbender, more people are aware of the issue and the next time this issue happens, the activism will be much stronger.

RACEBENDING.cOM:The protest against “racebending” in the musical Miss Saigon took place twenty years ago–before many The Last Airbender protestors were even born. What inspired you to join the Miss Saigon protest?

TIM DANG: As a performer, I had always wondered why the King in the musical The King and I was always played by a Caucasian actor.

Yul Brynner in The King and I (1965) released the same year East West Players was formed.

TIM DANG: When Miss Saigon came along, if we permitted one more Asian role to be lost to someone non-Asian, there would be another generation of “yellowface” happening to another hit musical and less opportunities to be played by an Asian American lead. It was time to stop this process.

Miss Saigon was that moment in time a large group advocated for change in casting practices that were discriminatory to Asian Americans. Imagine what could have been done if we had email way back then!

Protesters at the Miss Saigon Broadway premiere in 1991.

RACEBENDING.COM What lessons learned from the Miss Saigon protest might apply to protests against discrimination in casting today?

TIM DANG: The lessons learned was that we empowered ourselves and that our voice could be heard. We paved the way so that Miss Saigon’s role of the Engineer, as far as I know, has always been played by a person with Asian ethnicity since Jonathan Pryce played him in London and Broadway. And Miss Saigon gives opportunities to many Asian American performers.

Since 1994, Filipino actor Leo Valdez has played the role of the Engineer over 1000 times, including on tour in Manila, Hong Kong, Sydney, London, and Singapore.

TIM DANG: Now, the content of Miss Saigon can also be another topic of debate but again we pick and choose our battles one subject at a time.

RACEBENDING.COM: Many of our readers are huge fans of Mako Iwamatsu, who played the voice of Uncle Iroh in Avatar: The Last Airbender. Mako also advocated for roles for Asian American actors and played a significant role in the creation and legacy of East West Players.

Mako Iwamatsu (Iroh)

RACEBENDING.COM: What was it like to work with Mako as one of your mentors? Did he share any views with you about Asian American representation in the arts and film industry?

TIM DANG: I remember the first conversation I had with Mako when I came to East West Players at the age of 21. He asked if I really wanted to be an actor and whether I had the passion and commitment to be in this business.

He said if there is anything else that I could do to make a living at, that I should do it. He told me it was going to be tough, opportunities were going to be few and that only a few will survive.

Well, I’m glad I’m still in the biz after 30 years.

RACEBENDING.COM: Common excuses that we’ve heard for not casting Asian American talent include that few Asian Americans are interested in being actors. Based on your own experiences, have you found this to be true?

TIM DANG: All I can say from the number of Asian American artists who come to East West Players to audition, to take classes and to find out how to get into the business, is that the Asian American artist community grows every year. More of them are in college/university theater/film programs, many are involved with the approximately 55 Asian American theaters around the nation as well as non-Asian specific theaters around the country.

RACEBENDING.COM: What about the excuse that Asians Americans who are actors lack talent and professional experience?

TIM DANG: Everyone needs training. There are just as many if not more non-Asian actors that lack talent and professional training.

If you–the casting director, or producer, or studio–do your homework and actually search for the right actor, you will find them. There is no excuse for inaccurately depicting a culture or a community.

If you–the casting director, or producer, or studio–do your homework and actually search for the right actor, you will find them. There is no excuse for inaccurately depicting a culture or a community.

RACEBENDING.COM Inquiring fans want to know: What was your experience like when you guest starred on Avatar: The Last Airbender? You played the character of Yon Rha, a retired Fire Nation soldier who years ago murdered the mother of the heroine, Katara.

TIM DANG: One of the more interesting parts of doing voiceover work is that you may be the only actor in the room and you are performing the scene with the director who is also describing to you what is happening in the script. They are also telling you the kind of emotion that you may be feeling. My job as an actor is to do it at least three different ways since we’ll do each scene at least three times and sometimes 10 times.

Tim Dang’s character, Yon Rha, a retired Fire Nation soldier–former leader of the Southern Raiders.

TIM DANG: At the end of the day, the director and writer have all these choices of how to play the scene with the different reactions I have given. So it’s always surprising to see which line reading is eventually chosen for the episode.

RACEBENDING.COM: Was it challenging to play such a controversial character?

TIM DANG: I remember my character being remorseful, and crying a lot so that my character did not lose face and still had a degree of integrity.

Yon Rha: I did a bad thing. I know I did and you deserve revenge.
So why don’t you take my Mother? That would be fair! Please spare me!

TIM DANG: It wasn’t so much challenging playing a controversial character as it was trying to bring up all the emotions without anyone to act with, while the director is describing the scene.

Racebending.com would like to thank Mr. Tim Dang for this interview! For more information about East West Players, visit their website at www.eastwestplayers.org
To learn more about Mako, click here to read Racebending.com’s feature article.

Professor Birgitte Vittrup is a researcher at Texas Woman’s University’s Department of Family Sciences who studies Early Childhood Development and Education.

In September 2009, Newsweek magazine published an article called “See Baby Discriminate”. Writers Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman featured Birgitte Vittrup’s 2007 dissertation, “Exploring the Influences of Educational Television and Parent-Child Discussions on Improving Children’s Racial Attitudes.” Vittrup’s study explored if multicultural children’s television or conversations with parents helped improve white children’s attitudes towards black people.

Racebending.com staff was immediately interested in this study because Avatar: The Last Airbender is a multicultural show. Although A:TLA was not one of the shows used in the study–kids were shown episodes of The Puzzle Place, Sesame Street, Little Bill, and Zoom–were curious to know if shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender help foster diversity. When Racebending.com staff tried to find Professor Vittrup’s contact information, we were shocked to learn that her studies have caused her to receive a substantial amount of hate mail from white supremacist groups.

We interviewed Vittrup over email about her studies, the developmental psychology of children as media consumers, their perceptions of race and ethnicity, and the potential impact the The Last Airbender “racebending” casting decisions may have on a young viewing audience.

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

RACEBENDING.COM I was wondering if we could start off talking about your dissertation, the one that researched whether or not children’s television, conversations with parents, or a combination of both would influence how they see race? Can you describe what happened?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP:The study was an intervention study to improve children’s racial attitudes. One group of children watched racially diverse educational TV programs by themselves, one group watched the programs and discussed the content (i.e., the diversity messages) with their parents, one group had the conversations with their parents (without the programs), and a fourth group was our control group.

We compared children’s racial attitude scores before and after the intervention and also considered neighborhood and school diversity and interracial friendships the children might have.

Initially I found that there was no statistically significant difference between pre- and post-test scores in any of the groups. This was of course disappointing and I started looking more closely at the data to see what might be the reason. The viewing and discussion diaries that parents filled out each day started to clue me in as to what might be going on.

Parents in the TV + Discussion group and in the Discussion Only group had to indicate whether they had the discussion, whether they covered all topics provided, and the level of discussion they had (no discussion, just mentioned the topics, had some conversation about the topics, or had in-depth conversations with their child). It became clear that most parents did not follow the directions given, and either they skipped some of the topics, had no discussion, or just barely mentioned the topics. Very few parents had real substantive conversations with their children.

I then looked at some of the background information and lead-in questions the parents had filled out prior to the intervention, and the questions related to whether or not parents discuss race with their children and why gave additional clues about why the intervention might not have worked.

Many parents indicated that they had chosen not to discuss race with their children, and the most commonly given reasons were that they wanted their children to grow up to be “colorblind,” the topic had not come up, they didn’t think it was important to discuss race, or they simply did not know how to discuss it in an appropriate manner.

The parents who indicated that they did discuss race mostly mentioned very generic statements, such as “Everyone is equal,” “God created everyone,” and “We are all the same on the inside.” These are vague statements that don’t necessarily translate into messages about race and equality in a child’s mind.

In conclusion, it became apparent that the intervention did not work because parents were so uncomfortable talking about race that they chose not to follow the instructions given for the intervention. When looking at the small number of parents who did have significant conversations with their children, there was a significant improvement in racial attitudes.

Parents were so uncomfortable talking about race that they chose not to follow the instructions given for the intervention. When looking at the small number of parents who did have significant conversations with their children, there was a significant improvement in racial attitudes.

Another thing we measured was children’s perceptions of their parents’ racial attitudes, both before and after the intervention. Prior to the intervention, many of the white children indicated that they did not know what their parents thought about Black people, and some bluntly stated that they thought their parents did not like Black people.

Following the intervention, the children whose parents had had conversations with them which included messages about racial equality were much less likely to say that they didn’t know their parents’ attitudes or to say that they thought their parents held negative racial attitudes.

RACEBENDING.COM After reading the article in Newsweek, racebending.com readers had an online discussion about how the label “racist” is synonymous with being bad, or irredeemably awful.

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: I agree, it’s a very “charged” word – and a very charged subject. Before the civil rights movement, it was considered somewhat appropriate to hold negative attitudes towards other racial groups as well as to speak openly about it. However, in current times, it is considered inappropriate to harbor such negative attitudes. Whites especially are so uncomfortable with the topic of race, probably because they do not want to be labeled “racist” if they say something the wrong way, and I think the word “racist” has become somewhat associated with the notion of being of irredeemably low character.

RACEBENDING.COM It seems to hamper any effort at constructive dialogue about race, since it then becomes impossible to point out someone’s prejudiced beliefs without also being seen as accusing them of being the scum of the earth. Do you have any thoughts about how society approaches discussions about race?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: One definition of racism is that it is a system of advantage based on race – this system involves cultural messages, institutional policies, and attitudes, beliefs, and actions of individuals.

In the U.S. that means whites (who are the majority) have an advantage over racial minorities. This is an uncomfortable definition to some, because white people often do not think of themselves as being privileged or having additional opportunities for success compared to other racial groups. They often don’t see it.

Because of this, discussions about race are subdued and people in the “majority” group (i.e., White Americans) are weary of engaging in such conversations – they don’t want to appear “racist” or even slightly biased, and they don’t know exactly what is “PC” to talk about and what isn’t (so rather than risking saying the wrong thing, they choose not to broach the subject at all).

Similarly, it is considered perfectly appropriate for people of racial minority status to express pride in their race and heritage, whereas pride amongst whites is usually associated with “white pride/white power” affiliations (which are usually categorized as “hate” groups), and thus in order to instill “appropriate” pride in white children, parents usually focus on the specific country of heritage (such as Irish, Italian, German, French, etc.), rather than the race overall.

All of these things, in combination with the strong history of racial discrimination in this country, contribute to the discomfort many people feel in talking openly about race.

In reality, we all have biases, and we’re all aware of the stereotypes that exist about various racial groups. The biases are based on our experiences, observations, and messages from parents, peers, and the media. In order for healthy dialogue to take place, we have to acknowledge these biases and evaluate where they’re coming from.

I think as a society we have to learn to more openly discuss biases and the origins of those biases in order to progress to being a more “equal” society. This takes effort at all levels – parents, teachers, media, government, policies, etc.

RACEBENDING.COM: Pretty much everyone we’ve interviewed so far has agreed that children see racial differences. But do kids attribute the same things to those racial differences that adults do?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: Generally, young children don’t. The Newsweek article didn’t quite explain everything as accurately as I might have wished for.

When babies see differences between faces or people of different skin color, the word “discriminate” refers to being able to distinguish. Babies tend to look longer at things that are familiar to them, and thus, if they are used to seeing people and faces of a particular skin color, they are more likely to look longer at those images because it is what’s familiar to them.

Young children (e.g., preschoolers) see skin color differences as well, but they do not yet attribute the meaning to race and skin color as adults do. To them it is simply a physical characteristic they are noticing. When they are young, children learn which differences are important in categorizing people and which aren’t.

For example, children pay attention to hair length and color as well, but they learn quickly that there isn’t really a consistent pattern of categorization into long-haired people, medium length hair people, and short-haired people, so it becomes more of a peripheral characteristic.

On the contrary they learn quickly that race IS a significant characteristic that is used to categorize people. This is based on their observations–the way people group together and what they see in the media–and what they hear (e.g., the use of racial labels to describe people, or any statements linking certain traits to certain racial groups).

So around the ages of 3-5 children develop racial awareness where they are able to recognize racial differences, label the differences, and categorize themselves within a racial group.

After they develop awareness, they develop “racial orientation,” which is when the first positive and negative attitudes about racial groups show up. These are sometimes referred to as “embryonic racial attitudes” and they generally become present around the ages of 3-6. These two phases form the foundations of later racial attitude development.

Around age 6-8 they begin to learn more about the complexities of race, including stereotypes and social status, and around the ages of 6-8. They learn this from society, media, and adults around them.

Many parents are under the assumption–naïve as it may be–that by not talking about race, children will grow up to be colorblind. Unfortunately, our society is not colorblind, so without parents mediating and explaining to children what they are seeing, hearing, and experiencing, children are pretty much left to their own devices to figure everything out.

[Kids] see the self-segregation of children into different racial groups at school, they hear comments made by their peers, they see the stereotyped portrayals on television, and they notice that their parents don’t seem to associate much with people of other racial groups. Thus, they are likely to make the conclusion that other racial groups are not as important, there are negative traits associated with these other groups, and you should not associate and mingle with them.

For this reason, I think it is vitally important that parents have more explicit conversations with their children–focusing on diversity, equality, respect, and importance across all racial groups–as well as teach them media literacy skills. Teaching them to critically evaluate what they see on television (or video games, computers, etc.) and make them realize that the world of television is not necessarily representative of the real world.

RACEBENDING.COM: What role does the media play in informing children’s perceptions of race? In your opinion, are there any differences in how white children view/interpret media, versus how children of color might view/interpret media?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: Media is such a big part of children’s lives these days. They spend countless hours in front of television, video games, and computers. TV has often been referred to as a “window on the world” because children look to television to learn about the norms, values, rules, and structure of the society they live in.

Children Now – a non-profit organization– has done some content analyses of primetime television programming and video games, and their findings are very interesting. Television is very white, and the proportion of minorities [on TV] is not representative of the actual proportion living within the United States. Furthermore, minorities are often cast in minor/secondary roles or very stereotyped roles.

This causes a problem when children don’t have regular “real-life” contact with people of other racial or ethnic groups, because their only knowledge of them then comes from television, and they’re likely to buy into the stereotypes, as well as pick up on a subtle message that non-whites are not as important–since they’re not portrayed as often, nor are they frequently portrayed in the “hero” roles.

It is important that children see themselves represented on television – not just in terms of race, but also in terms of socioeconomic status and family structure. Being represented on television makes them feel “normal” – that there are others like them.

It is important that children see themselves represented on television…Being represented on television makes them feel “normal” – that there are others like them.

For white, middle-class children this is usually not a problem. But for minorities, children from lower-socioeconomic status families, and children in single-parent, blended, or mixed-race families, this is not always the case. They either don’t see themselves represented at all, or they see negative stereotyped representations of themselves. This can over time influence children’s self-esteem and feelings of self-worth and “fitting in.”

RACEBENDING.COM: A lot of the fans really felt that Avatar: The Last Airbender was quality children’s television, in part because of how—despite the fact that it was set in a fantasy world—it introduced children to elements of Asian culture. They especially liked how the characters were ethnically from Pacific Rim cultures, rather than the traditional Anglo-Saxon characters you see in other fantasy shows.

Based on your research and what you’ve studied about children and race, do shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender, which introduce kids to new cultures and heroes of color, help kids become less prejudiced?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: Yes, I believe that it is important for all children to be exposed to ethnically diverse programs in which people from various racial/ethnic groups are presented as positive role models and in heroic roles. Children of all racial groups need to see “their own kind” represented on television, and they need to see a variety of “others” represented.

Exposure to positive role models and heroic characters of various cultural backgrounds will send the message that all racial/ethnic groups are important and that they all have positive characteristics. The more equally diverse children’s programming is, the more “normal” it will be for children to identify with and associate with people of other racial groups. It is, however, important for the portrayals to not be stereotyped and to emphasize individual differences.

RACEBENDING.COM: When casting changes like the ones we are protesting happen, can kids perceive how the filmmakers of The Last Airbender discriminated against people of color? What impact might the “whitewashing” of the heroes of The Last Airbender have on children in the audience?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: This is a very good question. As I mentioned above, it is important for children to see themselves represented in the media world. It is also important for them to see other races represented. Thus, cartoons like Avatar can be important both for Asian children as well as children of other racial or ethnic descent.

I think it was an unfortunate decision on the part of the casting directors to choose an overwhelmingly white cast to represent the heroes in the motion picture version of this show. It would have been a great opportunity to portray heroes of other cultural heritage since there already are plenty of movies and shows featuring white heroes.

I understand the argument some have made that this is an American movie and therefore they are trying to cast people who are representative of current day American culture. However, given the fantasy setting and original “location” of the cartoon, I think that argument may be flawed.

Similarly, reality is that children are able to create fantasy games and pretend to be heroes of any ethnic descent, and they don’t always necessarily pick someone of their own cultural heritage. But nonetheless, my argument is that there is a great lack of representation of cultural minorities–especially in heroic roles–and this movie would have been an excellent opportunity to add more representative diversity to the big screen.

There is a great lack of representation of cultural minorities–especially in heroic roles–and [The Last Airbender] would have been an excellent opportunity to add more representative diversity to the big screen.

Unfortunately, I also think that too much emphasis on the race of the movie characters can backfire and send the wrong message to children.

On the one hand we want to have this debate because we believe that Hollywood does have a responsibility to give equal opportunities to various racial/ethnic groups–not just in numbers but in the type of portrayals as well–but on the other hand ,we have to be careful with what message this debate sends to children. They may inadvertently pick up the message that race is an important distinction between people, that they should distinguish between “us” and “them” when it comes to race, and that there are negative characteristics about some racial groups.

We have to be careful with what message this debate sends to children. They may inadvertently pick up the message that race is an important distinction between peoplethat they should distinguish between “us” and “them” when it comes to race, and that there are negative characteristics about some racial groups.

RACEBENDING.COM: We’re heard from parents with confused kids who want to know why the characters no longer look like them, or don’t understand why their parents want to boycott the movie. How should parents explain the casting controversy to their children?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: Putting too much emphasis on the “whitewashing” argument and flat-out boycotting the movie can backfire if parents want their children to grow up with respect for diversity and equality. This goes back to what I mentioned previously about putting too much emphasis on race, thus creating an “us” versus “them” mentality.

My advice would be for the parents to explain to children that heroes come in all colors and from all backgrounds. When cartoons are made into movies, the characters don’t always look the same. However, they still represent the heroes of those cultures.

At the same time, you don’t want to ignore the issue, because that sends the wrong message as well. Young children most likely won’t notice the casting changes, but older children likely will, especially if they have been following the cartoon regularly. Parents may wish to tell their children that the movie directors simply did not do a very good job of casting representative actors to play the roles of the various characters. But they should continue to emphasize to their children that television and movies often do not accurately represent real life (for example, look at the so-called “reality” shows – they often feature a cast of white, middle-class, attractive, fit individuals – leaving out the “average Joe/Jane”, the overweight, the financially challenged, and the less successful).

Teaching children media literacy skills (i.e., being able to critically view and evaluate media content and recognize that it may not be representative of real life) goes a long way.

RACEBENDING.COM: Paramount Pictures told us that their cast is actually more diverse than the animated series, because they’ve casted these white actors to play heroes, and middle eastern-looking actors to play bad guys, and Asian American and Black actors to play villagers. They seemed to suggest that the animated series wasn’t diverse because it only had Asian characters, even though Asia is a very diverse continent. Our argument is that although they may have added more ethnicities to the story, they’ve shoved everyone who isn’t white into secondary roles, which is not equal footing. Do you have any thoughts on the difference between diversity and equality?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: I think the directors may be ignorant of the great diversity that exists within the Asian continent (as so many are). I teach a class on parenting and child care around the world, and most of my students are amazed to hear how many different countries, cultures, norms, and differences there are. I think many Americans think mainly of China and Japan when thinking about Asian countries, and they are generally unaware of the many other countries and cultures make up this big continent.

Thus, while the original cartoon may have been quite diverse, the directors did not see it that way and chose to add additional diversity – in the form of other races/ethnicities – to the movie. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but the unfortunate decision is that it looks like most of the heroic characters are in fact played by white actors while villains and secondary roles are given to minorities (Disclaimer: I have not seen the full cast listing, so I can’t comment in much detail about this).

Diversity and equality is not just about numbers. Just including an equal number of characters from each race is not enough to make a blanket statement about diversity and equality.

Diversity and equality is not just about numbers. Just including an equal number of characters from each race is not enough to make a blanket statement about diversity and equality. As you mentioned, if a movie has a lot of different racial groups represented but one group is mainly represented as the heroes and the other racial groups are presented as villains or in other highly stereotyped manners, then the representation is not equal.

RACEBENDING.COM: One of the critiques of the website or the movement itself is that our protest may be alienating to people who are white. Obviously, the views held by the producers of the movie are not held by everyone who are white, but it is still challenging to approach the subject. The last thing we want is for this to become an “us” versus “them” argument. Especially since we did a survey and actually, over sixty percent of our supporters identified as white or Caucasian!

In your study you found that people can become very uncomfortable with these kinds of dialogue, especially with young children. Do you have any thoughts or advice on how to engage people of all colors in these conversations so no one feels awkward or alienated?

PROFESSOR VITTRUP: Race is a very “charged” dialogue subject. Many people – especially white people – are very uncomfortable discussing race and race related topics. I think part of the reason is that this country has a very powerful history of white subordination of Blacks and other minorities, as well as the history of racism and discrimination.

Many whites are afraid that if they mention race, it will be interpreted in the wrong context, and they don’t want to appear biased. Many simply don’t know what to say. I think that among white people there is discomfort and confusion about what is “okay” to say and what is “not okay.”

As for the criticism of the website or movement in terms of alienating white people, I think the people who are most likely to feel alienated or offended are those with white supremacy tendencies. To them, battles for equality and representation by minorities are often interpreted as anti-white sentiments. And as you mentioned, many of your supporters are, in fact, white. Many people, regardless of racial or ethnic background, support equality and fair representation and wish to fight against discrimination and misrepresentation.

But as I mentioned previously, there is a risk involved in these controversies surrounding race. By focusing too much on the “whitewashing” argument, it can in fact backfire and create an “us” versus “them” mentality among some people. The key is to keep the conversation relevant across racial boundaries. I don’t have the magic answer as to how to do this, but it may help to broaden the conversation to include such topics as fair representation for all – including representative portrayals of all racial groups, socioeconomic levels, family status, body type, gender, and more.

There is a risk involved in these controversies surrounding race. By focusing too much on the “whitewashing” argument, it can in fact backfire and create an “us” versus “them” mentality among some people. The key is to keep the conversation relevant across racial boundaries.

As mentioned previously, television and movies present very stereotyped portrayals, and more often than not, racial minorities, low-SES groups, single parents and blended families, overweight people, and women are portrayed negatively, and these portrayals then sustain the existing stereotypes.

The key argument, in my opinion, is that Hollywood has a choice – as do TV producers, video game creators, and the like. They can choose to reinforce existing stereotypes–which is often easier, because it decreases the need for more thorough character development–or they can choose to be more representative of this melting pot that makes up the United States. They can do so both in terms of content, character development, and casting decisions. Some are already doing this, and children’s television has become more diverse during past decades, but we still have a long way to go.

Ultimately, I don’t think the box office for this particular movie will be affected too much by the protest–because they rarely are–, but… I do think the protest has merit, because it creates awareness, and it also sends the message to movie producers that there is in fact an audience for truly representative casting of appropriate ethnicities. Hopefully, this can lead to a greater awareness of the need for representative diversity in the media.

Racebending.com would like to thank Professor Birgitte Vittrup for this interview.

Tak Toyoshima, author of the comic strip Secret Asian Man, is the first and only Asian-American to have a comic strip syndicated and printed in daily newspapers around the country. Secret Asian Man debuted in 1999 and ran in syndication with United Feature Syndicate from July 16, 2007 to September 19, 2009. It was the first ever syndicated comic strip featuring an Asian American lead.

Racebending.com was able to email interview Toyoshima about his work. Interspersed throughout the interview are comic strips excerpted from The Daily Days and Toyoshima’s website..

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

RACEBENDING.COM: Please tell us about yourself and about the Secret Asian Man comic strip.

TAK TOYOSHIMA: I’ve been producing SAM since 1999 in monthly, weekly and daily formats and have enjoyed making every single one of them.

RACEBENDING.COM: Secret Asian Man is famous for its daring social critiques, where characters talk openly about issues like stereotypes, politics, and racism. What inspired you to create comic strips about controversial topics?

TAK TOYOSHIMA: Sometimes it strikes me as odd that talking about things like race, religion, politics…etc would be considered controversial. I think it’s a reflection of how those things are viewed in our society. They are things that, for the most part, aren’t discussed in the open. Usually in a small group among friends. I just want everyone to feel comfortable enough to talk about these things without feeling like they are going to offend anyone or will be made to feel bad about their opinions.

RACEBENDING.COM: Have you ever received any flak for the content of your comic strips?

TAK TOYOSHIMA: I have definitely taken my lumps from readers. My favorite ones are from readers who state they enjoy the strip then proceed to tear me a new one. Mostly people tend to remind me of things they think I am forgetting like if I talk about the Hiroshima, readers bring up the rape of Nanking. But I do love being wrong about things, too because I don’t want to come across as a know-it-all. Because I’m definitely not.

RACEBENDING.COM: Osamu “SAM” Takahashi is one of the very few leading comic strip characters of color. Has it been difficult establishing him in the mainstream because of his ethnicity?

TAK TOYOSHIMA: Very interesting question that I’m not sure I have the answer to. I think there is an undeniable “Asianness” to the strip. Hell, it’s called Secret Asian Man. And in this country, things that are called out as Asian tend to not do so well. It makes people think that that’s all there is to the character. This is why I even posed to question to readers whether or not I should keep the name or change it to something a little less…threatening for lack of a better word.

It’s difficult to establish a comic strip, period. But I do get the sneaky feeling SAM’s ethnicity hasn’t necessarily helped gain acceptance in the mainstream.

RACEBENDING.COM: In your experience, have you found comic characters who are white to be more “neutral” or “universal” while characters of color are viewed as “niche” or with a smaller audience?

TAK TOYOSHIMA: Not necessarily. White people have plenty of character. I think they have a big future in mainstream American culture!

It’s true that ocassionally a character’s ethnicity becomes the focus of their personality but it can also work in our favor. Ninjas are badass. Good math skills CAN come in handy. When I hear people talk about kung-fu movie stereotypes, I start thinking “I LOVE kung-fu movies!” It’s certainly part of Asian culture, why not be proud of it? Well-developed characters almost have to become stereotypes or caricatures so people will know what to expect from them in the context of a story.

The times it does bother me is when characters become limited by their ethnicity. Asian guy can’t speak/read English well. So sorry, bad Engrish. Or when it becomes an easy way to develop a bad guy. Evil Korean dictator or sneaky Chinese spy.

RACEBENDING.COM: Your comic often depicts Sam’s five year old son, Shin, learning about race and ethnicity. This is territory where other comic strips with child characters, like Family Circus and Dennis the Menace, don’t go. What inspired you to depict Shin growing and learning and asking questions that adults might be too scared to ask?

TAK TOYOSHIMA: I would love to read a strip where Dennis the Menace sits down on Mr. Wilson’s porch and asks, “Mr. Wilson, are you old enough to remember lynchings in the South?” Hilarity ensues.

A lot of my wanting to include Shin comes from my years of being a pre-school teacher. Kids are brutally honest and their observations are so spot on that it makes me realize how clouded adult’s heads can become with assumptions and expectations. Getting into Shin’s character helps me to refocus and see things for what they really are.

RACEBENDING.COM: Having commented on Hollywood casting so many times in your comic strip, how did you hear about the casting of The Last Airbender? What was your reaction to it?

TAK TOYOSHIMA:I can’t remember exactly where I heard about the Last Airbender casting but I definitely got all the details at racebending.com. I wasn’t overly shocked, especially after similar treatment of Dragonball and rumors of a live action Akira starring Leonardo DiCaprio(!) that doesn’t take place in Neo-Tokyo. That’s like Gone with the Wind redone during the LA riots…actually, that sounds kinda cool.

The strips began in more of an alternative newsweekly tone where I could get away with a lot more in terms of subject matter. Many of weekly papers straddle the line between humor strip and editorial cartooning. But most editorial cartoonists talk about politics or sports. I saw an opportunty to get something a little different out there and introduce people to an Asian American character to boot!

I think comic strips are a great medium for discussing edgy topics because they are very disarming. Most people expect a gag strip but when they are left with something more thought provoking I think it’s more rewarding. Comic strips lower people’s defenses and if mixed with the right balance of humor and entertainment a comic strip message can go very far.

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If you’re interested in meeting Tak Toyoshima, Secret Asian Man will be at the Boston Comic Con on April 10th and 11th!

You can follow the newest Secret Asian Man strips at the SAM blog.

And if you’d like an autographed copy of Secret Asian Man: The Daily Days of your very own, or original art, visit SAM’s Merch page and tell ‘em Racebending.com sent you! Avatar: The Last Airbender fans may also be interested in some of Toyoshima’s shirts at Blacklava.net, including one that features Aang.

Racebending.com would like to thank Mr. Tak Toyoshima for this interview.

We have to remember that we’re part of a larger, longer struggle, and that people who have tried to create meaningful change have seldom been popular.”

Last month, activist and slam poet Bao Phi published an amazing article on being a “nerd of color” in a world that is not often friendly to either “identity.”

1. it’s not racism, it’s economics
2. this is a white man’s country, deal with it
3. you can’t force politics into art
4. you people always play the race card, etc.

But this can be your strength: being on the side that you’re on, means you’re going to hear every excuse for racism there is. It gives you the opportunity to be ready for the arguments and ready your thoughts. We’re always learning: but at the same time, I’ve been writing and thinking on these issues for a good long while, so I feel I can stand toe to toe with anyone in an argument.

Racebending.com would like to thank Mr. Phi for this interview!

Besides being a fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender, Justine Larbalestier is the author of the Magic or Madness trilogy, and of How to Ditch Your Fairy. Her latest novel, Liar, was released in October 2009 after controversy broke out over the race of the model on its cover. Racebending.com staffer Catherine e-mail interviewed Ms. Larbalestier about The Last Airbender racebending controvery, Liar, and racism in the media.

Her website is http://justinelarbalestier.com/

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

Racebending.com would like to thank Justine Larbalestier for this interview!

On August 19th, 2009, racebending.com staffers Dariane and Marissa interviewed Professor Russell K. Robinson, a Professor of Law at UCLA who specializes in – among other things – media, entertainment, and anti-discrimination law. Robinson’s 2006 paper, Casting and Caste-Ing: Reconciling Artistic Freedom and Antidiscrimination Norms, kicked up some dust in Hollywood trade magazines when it suggested that minority actors may have legal grounds to sue studios over their casting policies. The paper examines the intersection between Title VII – which prohibits discrimination in employment based on race–and the First Amendment–a movie studio’s right to artistic expression.

The following are some excerpts from our conversation with Professor Robinson, arranged by subject.

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

On the argument over whether or not Aang looks white…

“I guess for me it’s less about what we think the original creator intended by drawing these characters in a certain way, and more about the power structure and recognizing that this is not one character in isolation,” Robinson said. “Since they cast all the heroes as white and then the villain as Asian, that to me suggests that there is a broader structure that says “white good, Asian bad,” and we don’t have to rely so much on this one character.”

“We’re not just comparing Aang,” Robinson said, noting that the characters of Katara and Sokka were clearly darker skinned in the animated series. “If you look at the whole structure of it, the pattern, you see…Brown becomes white. And the only brown that stays brown is the enemy. That proves the point–more than isolating one character–as a whole.”

Brown becomes white. And the only brown that stays brown is the enemy.

“There are Supreme Court opinions where an Asian man once argued that he was white, because the immigration law said you could only be admitted if you were of a particular race. And the court had to grapple with that, and it just had to show the ugly business of the government deciding who is white. But if race is a social construction you have to understand that there is blurriness.”

On the “Caucasian or Any Other Ethnicity” casting calls that Paramount used to cast the leads of “The Last Airbender”…

“It seemed like given that source material and the names of the characters they were worried that white actors would not be submitted. So they seemed to make a point: ‘Caucasians; we want you, we’re definitely looking for you.’ But they didn’t make it exclusive, so other people could compete.”

Dariane mentioned that when she and the rest of the Los Angeles Street Team were protesting at Comic Con, many convention goers were shocked by the “Caucasian or any other ethnicity” casting breakdown listing.

“It’s a very blatant reminder, and it’s hard to see–in any other context in this day in age—[a job listing] saying ‘whites preferred,’” Robinson said. “I think most of us believe that we are beyond that. It is striking to see it on the page. They softened it by saying ‘and others,’ but by leading with Caucasian they’re indicating a preference. We prefer whites but we’ll take others as well, we’re [specifically] mentioning whites, only.”

Robinson reminded Racebending.com to look at the casting controversy from Paramount’s perspective. Perhaps Paramount was afraid that non-Asian actors would not audition because the characters in the show were Asian and the names of the characters sound Asian. But Paramount didn’t say “Open to all races, not just Asians.”

They softened it by saying ‘and others,’ but by leading with Caucasian they’re indicating a preference. We prefer whites but we’ll take others as well. We’re [specifically] mentioning whites, only.”

On Paramount’s defense that their casting practices are more “multicultural” than the original series…

“They said it’s more multicultural, but it looks to me like white centrality. They are able to cast Asian kids in the background. But [the Asian American actors] are not able to play the central roles, unless they’re the villains–which very much maps on the pattern that I found [in the study] with white men at the center and the perception that only whites are universal in terms of their appeal.”

“It’s not ‘We want everyone on an even playing field,’” Robinson said. “It’s ‘We really want Caucasians to audition.”

On what Hollywood currently regulates…and what it doesn’t…

Robinson noted that Hollywood does have several self-regulating measures in place, including the MPAA ratings board regarding the depiction of sex and violence.

“Now there’s a lot of discussion about smoking and the need to reduce the depiction of smoking in film,” Robinson said. “My colleague Taimie Bryant pointed out that there is extensive regulation of animals in film, and regulations protecting animals when they’re on the set. But discrimination [laws]—which most of us see as a bedrock civil rights law—isn’t respected in this industry; this industry isn’t bound by them.”

On hiring practices in Hollywood, versus hiring practices elsewhere…

Dariane shared her experience taking an acting class in the theater department at UCLA. “The first thing that they did was look at a roll sheet. And [the instructor] called out our names and we raised our hands, and she looked at us and said, ‘Okay, Caucasian. You can play between these ages, and these are the kinds of roles you would get,” Dariane said. “And I remember, when it came to me, she was like, ‘Okay…what ethnicity are you?’ And she was like, ‘You’re Asian, but you can probably play Latina. I was totally boggled by this, because no where else do you see that.”

“That would be shocking if you were in any other job interview and they asked you that question,” Robinson replied. “It’s not relevant. It shouldn’t be relevant.”

Does casting white actors to play ethnically Asian characters violate equal opportunity employment laws?

“The employment analysis would probably not turn on the race of the role being portrayed, but start from the assumption that the role should be available to everyone– except for my argument that there is a Title VII exception, where this is a role for Asian actors since it is an Asian character.

“That’s an interesting question under Title VII—whether it actually violates a statute. I would argue yes—and people could contest this—because you’re supposedly hiring everyone, but mentioning one race. That is indicating a preference, and that is inequality.”

Robinson offered an example of a job application for a non-Hollywood job that would be in violation if posted. “I’m hiring for a teaching assistant. Anyone can apply—whites especially!”

“The Title VII case law is very clear in other contexts,” Robinson said. “You cannot say: ‘I am discriminating because it will help my business be more profitable.’”

If an argument can be made that Hollywood is breaking employment discrimination laws, why does it go unchecked?

“It just shows that the practice doesn’t match up with the law,” Robinson said. “And I think it’s because people aren’t challenging it and I hope we’ll have actors that actually sue and take that risk.”

On the “artistic license” and racebending is a form of “freedom of expression” defense…

““The argument made, oftentimes, is: ‘the writer wrote this role as a white man and we can’t change his intent.’” Robinson said. “Here [with The Last Airbender] we change the roles for actors of color to white characters–which makes it more bankable. The claim about artistic integrity is usually just a defense of box office expectations.”

“They think that they can make more money if they cast white actors, so the complaint about artistic [license] is usually a cover for casting who they think is more bankable and that really is what’s going on here. Even if it changes the intention of the genesis of the project, and now you have these white heroes and a throng of Asians that they are leading, [to Paramount] those leaps of logic are more forgivable, because they think that whites are more bankable.”

“To me, the only time when it is legitimate to take race into account is when the storyline requires it–but here artistic integrity is dropped because of profitability. I think at the end of the day Hollywood only cares about dollars more than a particular artistic vision.”

On race and perceived box office “bankability”…

“I think that part of bankability or perceived bankability is race,” Robinson said. “The industry thinks that unknown white child actors are more appealing and generate more box office than child actors of color.”

Robinson presented a new theory on Paramount’s motivations for casting white actors, noting that in the past, Hollywood has avoided non-white, pan-ethnic casting in films. For example, a black actress was not cast opposite Will Smith in the film Hitch, allegedly out of concern that if the cast had too many black actors, the viewing public would write off the film as targeted for black audiences only, instead of for mainstream audiences. This was despite the fact that Will Smith is a Hollywood A-lister and one of the biggest box office draws in Hollywood.

“I think that’s what the calculus is, that white kids will be seen as sort of ‘universal’–a movie for everyone. While, if you see all Asian kids on the poster, then it might signal that this is a movie just for Asians and not white people, black people, Latino people…

“I find it troubling–the assumption that only whites can appeal to everybody, and if only people of color appear, it signals that it’s a ‘ghetto.’ It’s not dissimilar to neighborhoods where real estate agents are afraid of too many black people in the neighborhood because of the ‘nice white family.’ So it’s a very similar phenomenon where they try to limit people of color—to the extent that they feature people of color, it’s in marginal secondary roles. So you have to have that white, central, usually male character, and it seems like by making the central male character white, they think it’s making it more ‘open.’”

On the lack of Asian American actors in Hollywood…

Robinson shared an anecdote where he met with an influential casting director in Hollywood after his 2006 paper received attention in the press. He was told that Hollywood was looking to cast diverse actors, but there were not any ‘qualified’ Asian actors. After Robinson pressed them to qualify that statement further, the casting director said that there are so few professionally trained Asian American actors (never mind that East West Players, a theater troupe founded by late Avatar: The Last Airbender voice actor Mako Iwamatsu, specializes in training aspiring Asian American actors.) The casting director reasoned that this was because “Asian American culture does not support acting.”

Robinson responded to the casting director: “If that’s true—and I’m not saying it is—maybe it’s because you don’t show any Asians on TV! Why would you think you could pay your bills working in this profession? Why invest in acting classes, Julliard tuition, if there won’t be any work for you after you become trained? Hollywood doesn’t see their own role in sending signals to people of color that there are no opportunities for them.”

Hollywood doesn’t see their own role in sending signals to people of color that there are no opportunities for them.”

On industry professionals concerned about speaking out, afraid of being blacklisted…

Marissa mentioned that many actors and industry professionals we’ve communicated with are reluctant to voice dissent over these discriminatory casting practices.. This was especially true of up and coming Asian American actors, and even some organizations–they voiced concerns about being blacklisted.

“It’s strange that they are so concerned about losing opportunities,” Robinson said, pointing out: “There are so few roles for Asian Americans, anyway, so what do you have to lose?”

On the power the creators or M. Night might have, and NDAs (Non-disclosure Agreements)…

When the Second Season DVD of the animated series came out, M. Night and the creators Mike DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko announced in a featurette that they planned on casting unknowns for all of the roles. Of course, with Jackson Rathbone cast as Sokka and Jesse McCartney and Dev Patel cast as Zuko, things did not work out that way.

“It’s likely based on the standard form of contracts in the industry that the creators don’t have any right to shape casting, unless you’re a very influential writer,” Robinson explained. “So they probably have no legal right to have any say. And there might be some language in the contract restricting their ability to say anything negative about the film. They could be at risk of losing their fees or burning bridges so there is a lot of economic pressure on them.”

“It is hard to think of a more powerful Asian American in the industry, but the reality is that M. Night [Shyamalan] has not had a hit in a while and even if he said ‘I’m going to cast whoever I want and you can’t object to that!’ at this point in his career he might have to play ball. If there is a producer or executive saying he wants white leads… the very fact is that people of color who are very powerful still don’t seem to have the power to create very diverse casts. Even people who seem like they are very influential are limited in what they can do. I think Halle Berry and Denzel Washington have said there are roles that they are not sent because they are black.”

On what a grassroots movement such as racebending.com could do to fight discrimination, and why it’s important…

Robinson referred to González v. Abercrombie & Fitch, an anti-discrimination case where “a grassroots student-led campaign led to a lawsuit.”

“[A lawsuit] would not produce a lot of money, but maybe it could be a groundbreaking case that would really break the playing field. I think if producers were afraid of being sued for their casting practices, they would change them. They would have to at least audition the many kids of color not being included.”

I think if producers were afraid of being sued for their casting practices, they would change them. They would have to at least audition the many kids of color not being included.

“The challenge is to get people seeing this as a priority and people getting affected. People see it as entertainment, not as important, it’s only one industry—but one of the most influential industries. If you look at all the kids that watch films and TV, and don’t see themselves represented, it’s a concern we should take very seriously; not something that’s marginal. We can see Sasha and Malia in the White House, but we can’t see Asian kids playing the leads of this film.”

Racebending.com would like to thank Prof. Robinson for this interview!