Racebending.com

On August 19th, 2009, racebending.com staffers Dariane and Marissa interviewed Professor Russell K. Robinson, a Professor of Law at UCLA who specializes in – among other things – media, entertainment, and anti-discrimination law. Robinson’s 2006 paper, Casting and Caste-Ing: Reconciling Artistic Freedom and Antidiscrimination Norms, kicked up some dust in Hollywood trade magazines when it suggested that minority actors may have legal grounds to sue studios over their casting policies. The paper examines the intersection between Title VII – which prohibits discrimination in employment based on race–and the First Amendment–a movie studio’s right to artistic expression.

The following are some excerpts from our conversation with Professor Robinson, arranged by subject.

NOTE: The opinions espoused by the interviewees represent their viewpoints alone, and do not necessarily represent the views held by the staff of racebending.com

On the argument over whether or not Aang looks white…

“I guess for me it’s less about what we think the original creator intended by drawing these characters in a certain way, and more about the power structure and recognizing that this is not one character in isolation,” Robinson said. “Since they cast all the heroes as white and then the villain as Asian, that to me suggests that there is a broader structure that says “white good, Asian bad,” and we don’t have to rely so much on this one character.”

“We’re not just comparing Aang,” Robinson said, noting that the characters of Katara and Sokka were clearly darker skinned in the animated series. “If you look at the whole structure of it, the pattern, you see…Brown becomes white. And the only brown that stays brown is the enemy. That proves the point–more than isolating one character–as a whole.”

Brown becomes white. And the only brown that stays brown is the enemy.

“There are Supreme Court opinions where an Asian man once argued that he was white, because the immigration law said you could only be admitted if you were of a particular race. And the court had to grapple with that, and it just had to show the ugly business of the government deciding who is white. But if race is a social construction you have to understand that there is blurriness.”

On the “Caucasian or Any Other Ethnicity” casting calls that Paramount used to cast the leads of “The Last Airbender”…

“It seemed like given that source material and the names of the characters they were worried that white actors would not be submitted. So they seemed to make a point: ‘Caucasians; we want you, we’re definitely looking for you.’ But they didn’t make it exclusive, so other people could compete.”

Dariane mentioned that when she and the rest of the Los Angeles Street Team were protesting at Comic Con, many convention goers were shocked by the “Caucasian or any other ethnicity” casting breakdown listing.

“It’s a very blatant reminder, and it’s hard to see–in any other context in this day in age—[a job listing] saying ‘whites preferred,’” Robinson said. “I think most of us believe that we are beyond that. It is striking to see it on the page. They softened it by saying ‘and others,’ but by leading with Caucasian they’re indicating a preference. We prefer whites but we’ll take others as well, we’re [specifically] mentioning whites, only.”

Robinson reminded Racebending.com to look at the casting controversy from Paramount’s perspective. Perhaps Paramount was afraid that non-Asian actors would not audition because the characters in the show were Asian and the names of the characters sound Asian. But Paramount didn’t say “Open to all races, not just Asians.”

They softened it by saying ‘and others,’ but by leading with Caucasian they’re indicating a preference. We prefer whites but we’ll take others as well. We’re [specifically] mentioning whites, only.”

On Paramount’s defense that their casting practices are more “multicultural” than the original series…

“They said it’s more multicultural, but it looks to me like white centrality. They are able to cast Asian kids in the background. But [the Asian American actors] are not able to play the central roles, unless they’re the villains–which very much maps on the pattern that I found [in the study] with white men at the center and the perception that only whites are universal in terms of their appeal.”

“It’s not ‘We want everyone on an even playing field,’” Robinson said. “It’s ‘We really want Caucasians to audition.”

On what Hollywood currently regulates…and what it doesn’t…

Robinson noted that Hollywood does have several self-regulating measures in place, including the MPAA ratings board regarding the depiction of sex and violence.

“Now there’s a lot of discussion about smoking and the need to reduce the depiction of smoking in film,” Robinson said. “My colleague Taimie Bryant pointed out that there is extensive regulation of animals in film, and regulations protecting animals when they’re on the set. But discrimination [laws]—which most of us see as a bedrock civil rights law—isn’t respected in this industry; this industry isn’t bound by them.”

On hiring practices in Hollywood, versus hiring practices elsewhere…

Dariane shared her experience taking an acting class in the theater department at UCLA. “The first thing that they did was look at a roll sheet. And [the instructor] called out our names and we raised our hands, and she looked at us and said, ‘Okay, Caucasian. You can play between these ages, and these are the kinds of roles you would get,” Dariane said. “And I remember, when it came to me, she was like, ‘Okay…what ethnicity are you?’ And she was like, ‘You’re Asian, but you can probably play Latina. I was totally boggled by this, because no where else do you see that.”

“That would be shocking if you were in any other job interview and they asked you that question,” Robinson replied. “It’s not relevant. It shouldn’t be relevant.”

Does casting white actors to play ethnically Asian characters violate equal opportunity employment laws?

“The employment analysis would probably not turn on the race of the role being portrayed, but start from the assumption that the role should be available to everyone– except for my argument that there is a Title VII exception, where this is a role for Asian actors since it is an Asian character.

“That’s an interesting question under Title VII—whether it actually violates a statute. I would argue yes—and people could contest this—because you’re supposedly hiring everyone, but mentioning one race. That is indicating a preference, and that is inequality.”

Robinson offered an example of a job application for a non-Hollywood job that would be in violation if posted. “I’m hiring for a teaching assistant. Anyone can apply—whites especially!”

“The Title VII case law is very clear in other contexts,” Robinson said. “You cannot say: ‘I am discriminating because it will help my business be more profitable.’”

If an argument can be made that Hollywood is breaking employment discrimination laws, why does it go unchecked?

“It just shows that the practice doesn’t match up with the law,” Robinson said. “And I think it’s because people aren’t challenging it and I hope we’ll have actors that actually sue and take that risk.”

On the “artistic license” and racebending is a form of “freedom of expression” defense…

““The argument made, oftentimes, is: ‘the writer wrote this role as a white man and we can’t change his intent.’” Robinson said. “Here [with The Last Airbender] we change the roles for actors of color to white characters–which makes it more bankable. The claim about artistic integrity is usually just a defense of box office expectations.”

“They think that they can make more money if they cast white actors, so the complaint about artistic [license] is usually a cover for casting who they think is more bankable and that really is what’s going on here. Even if it changes the intention of the genesis of the project, and now you have these white heroes and a throng of Asians that they are leading, [to Paramount] those leaps of logic are more forgivable, because they think that whites are more bankable.”

“To me, the only time when it is legitimate to take race into account is when the storyline requires it–but here artistic integrity is dropped because of profitability. I think at the end of the day Hollywood only cares about dollars more than a particular artistic vision.”

On race and perceived box office “bankability”…

“I think that part of bankability or perceived bankability is race,” Robinson said. “The industry thinks that unknown white child actors are more appealing and generate more box office than child actors of color.”

Robinson presented a new theory on Paramount’s motivations for casting white actors, noting that in the past, Hollywood has avoided non-white, pan-ethnic casting in films. For example, a black actress was not cast opposite Will Smith in the film Hitch, allegedly out of concern that if the cast had too many black actors, the viewing public would write off the film as targeted for black audiences only, instead of for mainstream audiences. This was despite the fact that Will Smith is a Hollywood A-lister and one of the biggest box office draws in Hollywood.

“I think that’s what the calculus is, that white kids will be seen as sort of ‘universal’–a movie for everyone. While, if you see all Asian kids on the poster, then it might signal that this is a movie just for Asians and not white people, black people, Latino people…

“I find it troubling–the assumption that only whites can appeal to everybody, and if only people of color appear, it signals that it’s a ‘ghetto.’ It’s not dissimilar to neighborhoods where real estate agents are afraid of too many black people in the neighborhood because of the ‘nice white family.’ So it’s a very similar phenomenon where they try to limit people of color—to the extent that they feature people of color, it’s in marginal secondary roles. So you have to have that white, central, usually male character, and it seems like by making the central male character white, they think it’s making it more ‘open.’”

On the lack of Asian American actors in Hollywood…

Robinson shared an anecdote where he met with an influential casting director in Hollywood after his 2006 paper received attention in the press. He was told that Hollywood was looking to cast diverse actors, but there were not any ‘qualified’ Asian actors. After Robinson pressed them to qualify that statement further, the casting director said that there are so few professionally trained Asian American actors (never mind that East West Players, a theater troupe founded by late Avatar: The Last Airbender voice actor Mako Iwamatsu, specializes in training aspiring Asian American actors.) The casting director reasoned that this was because “Asian American culture does not support acting.”

Robinson responded to the casting director: “If that’s true—and I’m not saying it is—maybe it’s because you don’t show any Asians on TV! Why would you think you could pay your bills working in this profession? Why invest in acting classes, Julliard tuition, if there won’t be any work for you after you become trained? Hollywood doesn’t see their own role in sending signals to people of color that there are no opportunities for them.”

Hollywood doesn’t see their own role in sending signals to people of color that there are no opportunities for them.”

On industry professionals concerned about speaking out, afraid of being blacklisted…

Marissa mentioned that many actors and industry professionals we’ve communicated with are reluctant to voice dissent over these discriminatory casting practices.. This was especially true of up and coming Asian American actors, and even some organizations–they voiced concerns about being blacklisted.

“It’s strange that they are so concerned about losing opportunities,” Robinson said, pointing out: “There are so few roles for Asian Americans, anyway, so what do you have to lose?”

On the power the creators or M. Night might have, and NDAs (Non-disclosure Agreements)…

When the Second Season DVD of the animated series came out, M. Night and the creators Mike DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko announced in a featurette that they planned on casting unknowns for all of the roles. Of course, with Jackson Rathbone cast as Sokka and Jesse McCartney and Dev Patel cast as Zuko, things did not work out that way.

“It’s likely based on the standard form of contracts in the industry that the creators don’t have any right to shape casting, unless you’re a very influential writer,” Robinson explained. “So they probably have no legal right to have any say. And there might be some language in the contract restricting their ability to say anything negative about the film. They could be at risk of losing their fees or burning bridges so there is a lot of economic pressure on them.”

“It is hard to think of a more powerful Asian American in the industry, but the reality is that M. Night [Shyamalan] has not had a hit in a while and even if he said ‘I’m going to cast whoever I want and you can’t object to that!’ at this point in his career he might have to play ball. If there is a producer or executive saying he wants white leads… the very fact is that people of color who are very powerful still don’t seem to have the power to create very diverse casts. Even people who seem like they are very influential are limited in what they can do. I think Halle Berry and Denzel Washington have said there are roles that they are not sent because they are black.”

On what a grassroots movement such as racebending.com could do to fight discrimination, and why it’s important…

Robinson referred to González v. Abercrombie & Fitch, an anti-discrimination case where “a grassroots student-led campaign led to a lawsuit.”

“[A lawsuit] would not produce a lot of money, but maybe it could be a groundbreaking case that would really break the playing field. I think if producers were afraid of being sued for their casting practices, they would change them. They would have to at least audition the many kids of color not being included.”

I think if producers were afraid of being sued for their casting practices, they would change them. They would have to at least audition the many kids of color not being included.

“The challenge is to get people seeing this as a priority and people getting affected. People see it as entertainment, not as important, it’s only one industry—but one of the most influential industries. If you look at all the kids that watch films and TV, and don’t see themselves represented, it’s a concern we should take very seriously; not something that’s marginal. We can see Sasha and Malia in the White House, but we can’t see Asian kids playing the leads of this film.”

Racebending.com would like to thank Prof. Robinson for this interview!